[CIMC-working] Fw: [IMC-Process] Petros Evdokas.

[Chris Kaihatsu]

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----- Original Message -----
From: valentine V eben <vally_x@lycos.com>
To: Petros Evdokas <petros_cyprus@burleehost.net>
Cc: <imc-finance@lists.indymedia.org>; <imc-nigeria@indymedia.org>;
<imc-ambazonia-contact@lists.indymedia.org>; Sheri Herndon
<sheri@indymedia.org>; Jay <jay@tao.ca>; Luis
<corporatecrackdown@yahoo.com.br>; joseph <joseph@nigeria.indymedia.org>;
<imc-process@lists.indymedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: [IMC-Process] Petros Evdokas.


>
> Pedro I'll start by advicing you to go to this website and read about
consensus again
> http://consensus.hypermart.net/OCAC/
>
> And one of the main things you will learn there is that respect is one of
the main issues in consensus.  When you responded to the mail  Winter sent
to finance  with out taking time out to check your facts or your words you
basically wrote an email
> that brings to question the intergrity of the persons involved in IMC
Nigeria.
> This article might have hard some question that needed answers but the way
you phrased you statement did not in any form show that you were interested
in getting answers for your concerns. You where interested in gushing-out
words probably inspired by some background sterotypes or the desire to show
some sort of supiriority.
>
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-finance/2002-November/001580.h
tml
>
>  When it turn up that you got your facts wrong you didn't see yourself
apologising. Not to this Africans??? no may be not to these black people??.
You had  to find some way to come out without an apology.
> May I ask you a question . Is this the manner you would write to a comrade
???
>
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-finance/2002-November/001580.h
tml
> If your answer is no. Then you do not consider the people in IMC Nig. your
comrades. If your answer is yes then you are one of those who hardly
understand what it means to be in a struggle one inch out of what they read
from books. One of whom struggles are just somekind of pass time, becuase I
do not see how somebody with such a fixing could function in a political
group with fixed goals.
>
> Your write
> >Here is the most important part of what you wrote:
> >
> >"Nigeria IMC this year got funding from our partner
> >UCIMC and we did have a good understanding between us
> >before the funding came through. it was  approx.
> >$3,000. Which i Winters received for IMC Nigeria while
> >i was on a  visit to England. what we know and we are
> >used to is when you are funded by a group you at the
> >end of your organisation's accounting year send a copy
> >of  your account to the funding group or send account
> >of funds sent to your  group to the donor when they
> >request for it. We have never at anytime  recieved
> >funding from IMC global . Or if we may ask , when we
> >get  independent funding from any source do we send our
> >account to IMC global or send it to IMC lists? These
> >issues are quite confusing. I hope there is a  balance
> >treatment in handling IMCs affairs globally."
> >
> >This information should have been shared with all of us
> >from the very beginning of this application, and the
> >primary responsibility for this should be shouldered by
> >Sacha and Winters who were aware of the events; it is
> >not only a matter of courtesy, but also a matter of
> >transparency among political co-workers, and it goes
> >beyond just propriety, it involves a basic respect for
> >one's fellow colleagues.
>
> I'm surprisede why you did not ask all other IMCs to report to you( and
your us) about all the other support they get from other IMCs(not from the
network). IMC Russia from Holland, IMC Argentina from activists in Stuttgart
Germany. And a host of others. You probably are not interested in that
because they are based in some continent were you have some respect for
people who leave there may be.
> Is there any rule somwhere in IMCN where IMCs have to report to you( and
your us) about support they get from other IMCs(not network).
>
> After all the rambling you finally let out here what your exactly feelings
are. You talking about third world activists?? Rome was not burnt in one
day, you write! Do I need to know how many days it was burned??? Probably
you think I need to, because it is "classic" right???
>
> >The clever lever which many thirld world activists have
> >found for dealing with the machinery of the liberation
> >movement is  to push the "white guilt button" found
> >embedded within the psychological structure of most
> >NorthAmerican and NorthEuropean activists in order to
> >get allocations of funding, equipment, and leadership
> >status. This needs to be eradicated from imc
> >operations, and for that, we need your help Winters,
> >and the help of the global North people who are aware
> >of it and who either tend to fall for it, or tend to
> >cultivate it in others. It's most often found the
> >closer one gets to "liberal" political and financial
> >institutions of the ruling class, and it is not a
> >coincidence that a cultivation of this approach keeps
> >surfacing from colleagues who have associations in that
> >direction.
> >
> >Please help us to remove these minefields (mindfields)
> >from our dialogue, so that we can clarify our
> >co-operation on a better basis. Please help us look at
> >our shared mission and political values with a fresh
> >eye, and help us understand better the "why" and "how"
> >when it comes to approving funds to imc-Nigeria in this
> >period.
> >
> >Rome was not burnt in one day.
>
> You should understand that we(what you call third world activists) know
about some of these young  people who pretent to fight the system which they
benefit from. For whom fighting is  just a pass time. Whom when you meet in
their fifties all that can tell you that they where once so called activists
is their dressing(everyonce in a while).
>
>
>
> Ambazonia IMC
>
> In Ambazonia IMC reponse to net work criteria
>
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/new-imc/2002-November/004187.html
>
> It is clear that we are against oppression based on sexual orientation.
You probably have trouble that we did not copy word for word from the
network draft. Why ? because the draft was made by someone you think is of a
suprior race may be??
> We highlighted the kind of oppression that is most privalent in our
society. That makes people in our society understand we are for tolerance of
ALL.
> You wrote about it in your email to finance and you wrote about it again
in NEWIMC. Probably you were angry how this "untermenschen" dare not quickly
do what you wanted.
>
> All the activists in the network should try to take a keen look into this
issue.
> I sure do have enough stress to not need some from mails like those of
Pedros. If we are in a consensus based community and someone decides to
disrespect  others that is surely no more a consensus based community any
more.
>
> Sphinx(valentine)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>
> --
>
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:35:56
>  Petros Evdokas wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >To:
> >Winters, friends at imc-Nigeria, and imc-finance
> >co-workers,
> >on the occasion of the letter from Winters
> >
> >Hello,
> >
> >I would like to thank you for your thoughts regarding
> >the funding which the imc-Nigeria group has requested
> >from the imc-finance working group.  Your thoughts and
> >the information you sent us,  will certainly help us
> >make a better decision!
> >(Below is a copy of your letter. The imc-Nigeria
> >funding application is somehow linked to the
> >imc-Ambazonia application, so I'm including a copy of
> >this letter to imc-Ambazonia as well.)
> >
> >Here is the most important part of what you wrote:
> >
> >"Nigeria IMC this year got funding from our partner
> >UCIMC and we did have a good understanding between us
> >before the funding came through. it was  approx.
> >$3,000. Which i Winters received for IMC Nigeria while
> >i was on a  visit to England. what we know and we are
> >used to is when you are funded by a group you at the
> >end of your organisation's accounting year send a copy
> >of  your account to the funding group or send account
> >of funds sent to your  group to the donor when they
> >request for it. We have never at anytime  recieved
> >funding from IMC global . Or if we may ask , when we
> >get  independent funding from any source do we send our
> >account to IMC global or send it to IMC lists? These
> >issues are quite confusing. I hope there is a  balance
> >treatment in handling IMCs affairs globally."
> >
> >This information should have been shared with all of us
> >from the very beginning of this application, and the
> >primary responsibility for this should be shouldered by
> >Sacha and Winters who were aware of the events; it is
> >not only a matter of courtesy, but also a matter of
> >transparency among political co-workers, and it goes
> >beyond just propriety, it involves a basic respect for
> >one's fellow colleagues.
> >
> >Furthermore, there is still no reply on the issues
> >raised in the past regarding imc-Nigeria's work- group
> >procedures, which are  essentially political concerns
> >and can not be dismissed by vague references to
> >poverty, North-South division, access to resources etc.
> >The questions and issues raised (I will not repeat them
> >here) have to do with group organization, the mission,
> >languages, and productivity (output). They are
> >political, and have political, not finacial solutions.
> >There is also still no reply to the proposals on how to
> >help imc-Nigeria without money.
> >
> >Instead, your reply pretends that there has been a
> >"direct attack against" your "personality and
> >integrity". Please remember that I wrote:
> >"I do not believe that Winters would have been so crude
> >or crass, even if we had an apparent difference of
> >opinion - so far, Winters sounds like a reasonable
> >person who simply had questionable ally". How is this
> >an attack on your personality?
> >
> >Also, your letter pretends that our questions amount to
> >"tagging some IMC BAD". All we are asking for, is a
> >dialogue as colleagues, on procedures and perceptions
> >toward a shared goal. How else can we make decisions
> >about funding imc-Nigeria?
> >
> >The clever lever which many thirld world activists have
> >found for dealing with the machinery of the liberation
> >movement is  to push the "white guilt button" found
> >embedded within the psychological structure of most
> >NorthAmerican and NorthEuropean activists in order to
> >get allocations of funding, equipment, and leadership
> >status. This needs to be eradicated from imc
> >operations, and for that, we need your help Winters,
> >and the help of the global North people who are aware
> >of it and who either tend to fall for it, or tend to
> >cultivate it in others. It's most often found the
> >closer one gets to "liberal" political and financial
> >institutions of the ruling class, and it is not a
> >coincidence that a cultivation of this approach keeps
> >surfacing from colleagues who have associations in that
> >direction.
> >
> >Please help us to remove these minefields (mindfields)
> >from our dialogue, so that we can clarify our
> >co-operation on a better basis. Please help us look at
> >our shared mission and political values with a fresh
> >eye, and help us understand better the "why" and "how"
> >when it comes to approving funds to imc-Nigeria in this
> >period.
> >
> >Rome was not burnt in one day.
> >
> >Looking forward to more co-operation with you,
> >Petros
> >---------------
> >
> >
> >
> >winters wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I am very happy to respond to the mail below.
> >> I also highly appreciate the networking systems of our dear indymedia
and
> >> above all the special commitments of different people from all over the
> >> globe irrespective of age, colour, knowledge, standards, religion etc.
> >>
> >> I hardly respond to mails like this especially when it directly attack
> >> persons' personality and integrity, I mean when such mails  breaks what
i
> >> may refer to as official conducts.
> >>
> >> we are all bonded together as one big family through our collective
believe
> >> 'indymedia's mission'. Hence we all volunteer to give our time and
knowledge
> >> to it. Some of us have lost our jobs, gave all our savings and even our
> >> security  for this mission. Some of us have travelled from one
continent to
> >> the other exchanging ideas and building co-operation between people of
same
> >> minds , all to make indymedia  globally and locally work and reach
people.
> >> Most time people that can go this far may be able to sacrifice all they
have
> >> to the mission , but not their last asset- ' their integrity'.  Also, a
new
> >> IMC  like Nigeria , working from global south may be able to  give all
it
> >> takes to be strong , effective, reliable and also meeting global
network
> >> demands , but may also not be ready to be rumoured around the globe as
> >> unreliable and non existing in any capacity. I have been opportune to
travel
> >> to many continents of the globe and with my work in environment, social
and
> >> community development , i have come to realise that just like all
fingers
> >> are not equal , so also economic, social, and environmental standards
> >> varies from pole to pole. I have also come to realise that what is
> >> obtainable in the north may not be obtainable in the south due to
different
> >> problems and  constrains like poverty, people priorities, societal
values,
> >> resource availability etc.  I have always tried to to give equal
measurement
> >> to all people especially when they are all not in same conditions. I
also
> >> believe that tagging some IMC BAD or so even when they are doing their
best
> >> may not be the best way to helping IMCs improve. I am sure no IMC in
the
> >> globe can boast that they have reached perfection.... we are all
working to
> >> achieve that. That i know is our goal. I advise we should be careful in
the
> >> way we attack IMCs especially when you actually sit in one part of the
globe
> >> and shot punches to another group on the other end. Most times  it
doesn't
> >> help their growth . This kind of mails often kill projects and ideas
even
> >> before they are conceived. We all need encouragements rather than
> >> condemnations to help us all volunteer more time and strength to
achieve
> >> indymedia goals.
> >>
> >> Nigeria IMC this year got funding from our partner  UCIMC and we did
have a
> >> good understanding between us before the funding came through. it was
> >> approx. $3,000. Which i Winters received for IMC Nigeria while i was on
a
> >> visit to England. what we know and we are used to is when you are
funded by
> >> a group you at the end of your organisation's accounting year send a
copy of
> >> your account to the funding group or send account of funds sent to your
> >> group to the donor when they request for it. We have never at anytime
> >> recieved funding from IMC global . Or if we may ask , when we get
> >> independent funding from any source do we send our account to IMC
global or
> >> send it to IMC lists? These issues are quite confusing. I hope there is
a
> >> balance treatment in handling IMCs affairs globally. This draws our
> >> attention to the issue of question mark appearing in front of IMC
Nigeria
> >> link in the listing pages of IMC Document website. Same question mark
also
> >> appears for IMC South Africa. This page ( IMC Document
> >> website)http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/WebHome#_Africa_  there
are
> >> links to all other IMC , but non to Nigeria and South Africa. Can some
one
> >> answer this questions?
> >>
> >> As we all work to make indymedia reach out to all , we will be glad if
> >> volunteers and local IMCs are allow to do there work instead of getting
> >> condemnation for every little work done. little drop of water makes a
great
> >> ocean. Rome was never built in one day.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Winters
> >> Nigeria IMC
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Petros Evdokas writes:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Funding Nigeria-imc: 3 items to consider
> >> >
> >> > In this article:
> >> > o - the 3 items
> >> > o - some further thoughts, and Alternatives
> >> > ------------------------------
> >
>  hi all,
>
>                       there is something in this i don't understand: the
focus on the lesbian,
>                       gay, bi- and trans- sexual liberation process. don't
get me wrong - i think
>                       these are important issues for people with
anti-authoritarian views and i'm
>                       myself very interested in them not being overidden
by society's dominant
>                       structures. but is this addressed everytime in the
imc network when there
>                       are requests for funds or new groups to be approved?
why does it play such
>                       a relatively important role in the funding request
from ambazonia/nigeria?
>
>                       i have to admit that i'm not sure but i think that
these issues don't have
>                       a specific place in the german imc's mission
statement and other texts we
>                       sent when we were applying to be an imc. we were
never asked (i think -
>                       this was close to two years ago).
>
>                       is it a common procedure to ask imc's-to-be for
their views on specific
>                       questions now? i have to say that i find that a bit
strange. i didn't
>                       follow the new imc process evolution for a while
now. how many statements
>                       on specific subjects are being asked for? and which?
>
>                       Anna
>                       imc germany/berlin>
>
>
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