[Imc-legal] Re: [Imc-finance] FYI: [P2PJ] K5 fundraising
/ 501(c)(3)
Anna
anna at mail.nadir.org
Mon Jul 22 10:38:07 2002
hi,
i'm not suggesting to split up completely. i'm suggesting to use regional
lists for stuff that concerns one region only when it's not being explained
to others what the regional context is.
in addition to the lists that we have so far. but if these lists (such as
imc-finance, imc-process etc. etc.) are being used then i expect that stuff
that concerns the u.s. only is being explained so that others can
understand. besides which some of those things are more interesting than
others.
Anna
At 09:44 20.07.02 -0700, Always Shariff wrote:
>Hi,
>I think this is ok, because I like to know what is going on in the rest of the
>world as to the legal aspects. But if we divide it into lots of different
>areas, can we ever be a proper collective? Most of the legal issues do not
>stop
>at the borders as we know. Too many lists might spoil.....<g>
>Steve I will reply to the roll call as soon as I have a chat with the
>Bristol(UK) IMC about it.
>'Aving it somewhere constantly
>Always
>PS: Rhymes with Avon And Somerset Constabulary init? ;o}
>===============================================================================
>--- Anna <anna@mail.nadir.org> wrote:
> > hi all,
> >
> > i have to admit that i don't understand this at all - is it something that
> > concerns the u.s. only?
> >
> > if yes: i was going to suggest for topics that are u.s./north america-only
> > to maybe create mailing lists such as we have imc-europe@indymedia.org
> > anyway - to avoid confusing others and also to avoid the rest of he world
> > to feel like "not really being a part of it". it happens every now and
> then
> > that north americans forget that things work differently elsewhere ;). has
> > something like this been thought about before?
> >
> > if no: could you explain the idea behind this please?
> >
> > Anna
> > indy.de
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:50 11.07.02 -0600, shane wrote:
> > >FYI: I just read this post by rusty at kuro5hin.org on the peer to peer
> > >journalism list at infoanarchy.org re: their fundraising and legal status
> > >and figured indy kidz would be interested....
> > >
> > >I think there would be merit in taking a hard look at the co-op model as
> > >an alternative for Indymedia as it mandates self organization,
> federation,
> > >and mutual aid.
> > >
> > >in solidarity,
> > >shane
> > >
> > >
> > >>Delivered-To: shane@indymedia.org
> > >>Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:00:04 +0000
> > >
> > >>From: Rusty Foster <rusty@kuro5hin.org>
> > >>To: p2pj@infoanarchy.org
> > >>Subject: Re: [P2PJ] K5 fundraising
> > >>Reply-To: p2pj@lists.infoanarchy.org
> > >>
> > >>Michael Sims wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tuesday 18 June 2002 11:39 am, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > Again, Kuro5hin.org has made some innovative changes to become a
> > >>> > self-sustainable P2PJ community. They are now becoming a non-profit
> > and
> > >>> > will hold regular fundraising drives to attain the necessary budget.
> > >>>
> > >>> It is... interesting, certainly. I question whether Kuro5hin can
> > >>> legitimately claim tax-exempt status, as they do not appear to fit
> very
> > >>> well into any of the categories set forth under the law: charitable,
> > >>> religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public
> safety,
> > >>> or prevention of cruelty to children or animals. (That's assuming
> > >>> 501(c)(3); 501(c)(7) is actually closest to Kuro5hin, but it is a form
> > >>> that Rusty expressly rejects. :)
> > >>
> > >>My best guess right now is we'd be categorized under "educational". That
> > >>seems to cover purposes like running discussions and debates. "Literary"
> > >>seems to be very specifically geared toward print publishing, so that's
> > >>probably not going to work.
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> At a minimum whatever corporate structure currently exists will
> have to
> > >>> be dissolved and reformed. There are a not-insignificant number of
> > hoops
> > >>> to jump through. If the organization pays Rusty a salary (or
> otherwise
> > >>> compensates him) above market rates, it jeopardizes its status. (In
> > >>> fact, it appears that if Rusty receives any money whatsoever from the
> > >>> organization, there may be problems - consult a tax lawyer.)
> > >>
> > >>The corporate organization and bylaws will be totally rewritten,
> > >>certainly. Paying an administrator is not at all out of the question,
> > >>whoever it ends up being. If I apply for the job and I also sit on the
> > >>Board (a situation which is rather likely to occur), I will be
> > >>abstaining from any hiring decisions, naturally.
> > >>
> > >>There seem to be a lot people who think that being nonprofit means
> > >>you're not allowed to compensate employees fairly. That's not true at
> > >>all. Hiring and compensation simply has to be done in an open and
> > >>above-board manner, and whenever someone is hired who may have a
> > >>directorial say in the organization, they need to abstain from the
> > >>process. A little common sense goes a long way. If you understand the
> > >>purpose of the rules, it's easy to figure out what course of action to
> > >>take to remain in compliance with them.
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> All political articles on K5 jeopardize its status, as exempt
> > >>> organizations are totally forbidden from engaging in advocacy over
> > public
> > >>> elections and are heavily restricted from advocating for or against
> > >>> particular legislation.
> > >>>
> > >>> So the next time a story hits the queue that says, "Vote against
> Senator
> > >>> X, the Disney Senator", what will the choice be:
> > >>>
> > >>> a) let it go and risk losing tax-exempt status
> > >>> b) delete it by executive fiat
> > >>
> > >>This is currently my biggest question mark in the whole process. It's
> > >>not worth becoming a 501(c)(3) if it means we have to ban certain
> > >>articles or comments. I spoke to the director of e-thepeople.org, a
> > >>nonprofit that promotes democracy and political engagement, and he had
> > >>run into the same question founding his organization. They are currently
> > >>operating under the assumption that the "no advocacy" rule isn't
> > >>relevant because they are not, as an organization, sponsoring a
> > >>particular viewpoint or interfering in free debate. That is, providing a
> > >>place for people to speak freely is not the same as underwriting or
> > >>advocating whatever it is they say.
> > >>
> > >>We've engaged a very experienced nonprofit lawyer, and this is the major
> > >>question I have for her at this point. If that seems like a reasonable
> > >>stance, and is not contradicted by any existing case law, then we will
> > >>probably proceed under the same assumption. It seems that, as usual in
> > >>the developing area of the net, the law is not particularly clear or
> > >>well-established. My best analogy so far is that operating K5 is not
> > >>like publishing pamphlets, but more like maintaining a public
> > >>meeting-hall. If visitors to our meeting hall advocated political
> > >>action, would we have to give them the boot, or merely ensure that there
> > >>is equal opportunity for speakers with any viewpoint? It seems the
> > >>latter makes sense, but of course we'll be finding out what case law
> > >>says.
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Another note: donations aren't donations when the donator gets a
> benefit
> > >>> in return. So the text ads, or t-shirts, or whatever, would not be
> > >>> tax-deductible for the donator.
> > >>>
> > >>> Further, as a minor note: I question whether most contributors to K5
> > >>> itemize their deductions. If they do not, tax-exempt status
> provides no
> > >>> benefits to them.
> > >>
> > >>There's a large gray area here. Donations are tax deductible even if the
> > >>donor receives a "thank you gift." See public television and NPR
> > >>fundraising. It seems that the difference is largely a matter of
> > >>phrasing, and possibly also of cost. That is, if you have to donate $120
> > >>to get the t-shirt gift, can anyone make a reasonable case that you're
> > >>actually buying a t-shirt? That would be an awfully expensive t-shirt.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> So in summary: it will be difficult (I'm not quite willing to say
> > >>> impossible, but I think it unlikely) to be recognized as a tax-exempt
> > >>> organization, and I see only a minor benefit to the community for
> doing
> > >>> so.
> > >>
> > >>The benefits to the community are:
> > >>
> > >>* Assurance of democratic operation at the organizational level. If you
> > >>don't like decisions that the Board makes, you can vote the bums out.
> > >>
> > >>* Assurance that the site can not be sold to some company who will wreck
> > >>everything that made it valuable.
> > >>
> > >>* Assurance that I do not personally hold the fate of K5 in my clammy
> > >>little hands. Web community owners go broke, get burned out, find other
> > >>projects, etc. I'm not going to run K5 for the rest of my life. If it's
> > >>to be a real community, it should have the power to determine its own
> > >>future, independent of me personally.
> > >>
> > >>Tax exemption has little to do with anything, really. In fact, if the
> > >>free speech issues above turn out to be a serious problem, becoming a
> > >>co-op is a backup choice. With properly written bylaws, this would
> > >>provide all of the organizational benefits above, without any red tape
> > >>or government hassle. For a few reasons, it's my second choice, but if
> > >>necessary it is what we'll do.
> > >>
> > >>> Or to put it another way: I've seen many people/organizations state
> > >>> "We're going to become a non-profit". To date, none of them have
> > >>> actually done so.
> > >>
> > >>I've seen a lot of people start web communities, too, and most of them
> > >>fail. That doesn't mean a thing. I'm serious about this. but as I've
> > >>said on the site, come back in a few months and judge my actions for
> > >>themselves.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--R
> > >>--
> > >>Rusty Foster :: rusty@kuro5hin.org :: http://www.kuro5hin.org
> > >>Advertise smarter: http://www.kuro5hin.org/submitad
> > >>
> > >>You want your name to evoke dread long after you are deceased, not
> > >>merely mocking repugnance once you are finally caught and locked away.
> > >> --qpt
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--__--__--
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>P2PJ mailing list
> > >>P2PJ@lists.infoanarchy.org
> > >>http://lists.infoanarchy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/p2pj
> > >>
> > >>http://www.infoanarchy.org - your source for p2p news
> > >
> > >--
> > >We refuse to buy the right not to die of hunger by running the risk of
> > >dying of boredom.
> > >Student Slogan, Paris, 1968
> > >
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
>=====
>___________________________________________________________
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>
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