[Imc-finance] Petros Evdokas.

[valentine V eben]

Pedro I'll start by advicing you to go to this website and read about consensus again
http://consensus.hypermart.net/OCAC/

And one of the main things you will learn there is that respect is one of the main issues in consensus.  When you responded to the mail  Winter sent to finance  with out taking time out to check your facts or your words you basically wrote an email 
that brings to question the intergrity of the persons involved in IMC Nigeria. 
This article might have hard some question that needed answers but the way you phrased you statement did not in any form show that you were interested in getting answers for your concerns. You where interested in gushing-out words probably inspired by some background sterotypes or the desire to show some sort of supiriority.  
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-finance/2002-November/001580.html

 When it turn up that you got your facts wrong you didn't see yourself  apologising. Not to this Africans??? no may be not to these black people??. You had  to find some way to come out without an apology. 
May I ask you a question . Is this the manner you would write to a comrade ???
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-finance/2002-November/001580.html
If your answer is no. Then you do not consider the people in IMC Nig. your comrades. If your answer is yes then you are one of those who hardly understand what it means to be in a struggle one inch out of what they read from books. One of whom struggles are just somekind of pass time, becuase I do not see how somebody with such a fixing could function in a political group with fixed goals.

Your write 
>Here is the most important part of what you wrote:
>
>"Nigeria IMC this year got funding from our partner 
>UCIMC and we did have a good understanding between us
>before the funding came through. it was  approx.
>$3,000. Which i Winters received for IMC Nigeria while
>i was on a  visit to England. what we know and we are
>used to is when you are funded by a group you at the
>end of your organisation's accounting year send a copy
>of  your account to the funding group or send account
>of funds sent to your  group to the donor when they
>request for it. We have never at anytime  recieved
>funding from IMC global . Or if we may ask , when we
>get  independent funding from any source do we send our
>account to IMC global or send it to IMC lists? These 
>issues are quite confusing. I hope there is a  balance
>treatment in handling IMCs affairs globally."
>
>This information should have been shared with all of us
>from the very beginning of this application, and the
>primary responsibility for this should be shouldered by
>Sacha and Winters who were aware of the events; it is
>not only a matter of courtesy, but also a matter of
>transparency among political co-workers, and it goes
>beyond just propriety, it involves a basic respect for
>one’s fellow colleagues.

I'm surprisede why you did not ask all other IMCs to report to you( and your us) about all the other support they get from other IMCs(not from the network). IMC Russia from Holland, IMC Argentina from activists in Stuttgart Germany. And a host of others. You probably are not interested in that because they are based in some continent were you have some respect for people who leave there may be.  
Is there any rule somwhere in IMCN where IMCs have to report to you( and your us) about support they get from other IMCs(not network). 

After all the rambling you finally let out here what your exactly feelings are. You talking about third world activists?? Rome was not burnt in one day, you write! Do I need to know how many days it was burned??? Probably you think I need to, because it is "classic" right??? 

>The clever lever which many thirld world activists have
>found for dealing with the machinery of the liberation
>movement is  to push the "white guilt button" found
>embedded within the psychological structure of most
>NorthAmerican and NorthEuropean activists in order to
>get allocations of funding, equipment, and leadership
>status. This needs to be eradicated from imc
>operations, and for that, we need your help Winters,
>and the help of the global North people who are aware
>of it and who either tend to fall for it, or tend to
>cultivate it in others. It’s most often found the
>closer one gets to "liberal" political and financial
>institutions of the ruling class, and it is not a
>coincidence that a cultivation of this approach keeps
>surfacing from colleagues who have associations in that
>direction. 
>
>Please help us to remove these minefields (mindfields)
>from our dialogue, so that we can clarify our
>co-operation on a better basis. Please help us look at
>our shared mission and political values with a fresh
>eye, and help us understand better the "why" and "how"
>when it comes to approving funds to imc-Nigeria in this
>period.
>
>Rome was not burnt in one day.

You should understand that we(what you call third world activists) know about some of these young  people who pretent to fight the system which they benefit from. For whom fighting is  just a pass time. Whom when you meet in their fifties all that can tell you that they where once so called activists is their dressing(everyonce in a while).



Ambazonia IMC

In Ambazonia IMC reponse to net work criteria  
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/new-imc/2002-November/004187.html 

It is clear that we are against oppression based on sexual orientation. You probably have trouble that we did not copy word for word from the network draft. Why ? because the draft was made by someone you think is of a suprior race may be?? 
We highlighted the kind of oppression that is most privalent in our society. That makes people in our society understand we are for tolerance of ALL. 
You wrote about it in your email to finance and you wrote about it again in NEWIMC. Probably you were angry how this "untermenschen" dare not quickly do what you wanted. 

All the activists in the network should try to take a keen look into this issue.
I sure do have enough stress to not need some from mails like those of Pedros. If we are in a consensus based community and someone decides to disrespect  others that is surely no more a consensus based community any more.

Sphinx(valentine)   
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:35:56  
 Petros Evdokas wrote:
>
>
>
>To: 
>Winters, friends at imc-Nigeria, and imc-finance
>co-workers, 
>on the occasion of the letter from Winters
>
>Hello,
>
>I would like to thank you for your thoughts regarding
>the funding which the imc-Nigeria group has requested
>from the imc-finance working group.  Your thoughts and
>the information you sent us,  will certainly help us
>make a better decision! 
>(Below is a copy of your letter. The imc-Nigeria
>funding application is somehow linked to the
>imc-Ambazonia application, so I'm including a copy of
>this letter to imc-Ambazonia as well.)
>
>Here is the most important part of what you wrote:
>
>"Nigeria IMC this year got funding from our partner 
>UCIMC and we did have a good understanding between us
>before the funding came through. it was  approx.
>$3,000. Which i Winters received for IMC Nigeria while
>i was on a  visit to England. what we know and we are
>used to is when you are funded by a group you at the
>end of your organisation's accounting year send a copy
>of  your account to the funding group or send account
>of funds sent to your  group to the donor when they
>request for it. We have never at anytime  recieved
>funding from IMC global . Or if we may ask , when we
>get  independent funding from any source do we send our
>account to IMC global or send it to IMC lists? These 
>issues are quite confusing. I hope there is a  balance
>treatment in handling IMCs affairs globally."
>
>This information should have been shared with all of us
>from the very beginning of this application, and the
>primary responsibility for this should be shouldered by
>Sacha and Winters who were aware of the events; it is
>not only a matter of courtesy, but also a matter of
>transparency among political co-workers, and it goes
>beyond just propriety, it involves a basic respect for
>one’s fellow colleagues.
>
>Furthermore, there is still no reply on the issues
>raised in the past regarding imc-Nigeria’s work- group
>procedures, which are  essentially political concerns
>and can not be dismissed by vague references to
>poverty, North-South division, access to resources etc.
>The questions and issues raised (I will not repeat them
>here) have to do with group organization, the mission,
>languages, and productivity (output). They are
>political, and have political, not finacial solutions.
>There is also still no reply to the proposals on how to
>help imc-Nigeria without money.
>
>Instead, your reply pretends that there has been a
>"direct attack against" your "personality and
>integrity". Please remember that I wrote: 
>"I do not believe that Winters would have been so crude
>or crass, even if we had an apparent difference of
>opinion - so far, Winters sounds like a reasonable
>person who simply had questionable ally". How is this
>an attack on your personality?
>
>Also, your letter pretends that our questions amount to
>"tagging some IMC BAD". All we are asking for, is a
>dialogue as colleagues, on procedures and perceptions
>toward a shared goal. How else can we make decisions
>about funding imc-Nigeria? 
>
>The clever lever which many thirld world activists have
>found for dealing with the machinery of the liberation
>movement is  to push the "white guilt button" found
>embedded within the psychological structure of most
>NorthAmerican and NorthEuropean activists in order to
>get allocations of funding, equipment, and leadership
>status. This needs to be eradicated from imc
>operations, and for that, we need your help Winters,
>and the help of the global North people who are aware
>of it and who either tend to fall for it, or tend to
>cultivate it in others. It’s most often found the
>closer one gets to "liberal" political and financial
>institutions of the ruling class, and it is not a
>coincidence that a cultivation of this approach keeps
>surfacing from colleagues who have associations in that
>direction. 
>
>Please help us to remove these minefields (mindfields)
>from our dialogue, so that we can clarify our
>co-operation on a better basis. Please help us look at
>our shared mission and political values with a fresh
>eye, and help us understand better the "why" and "how"
>when it comes to approving funds to imc-Nigeria in this
>period.
>
>Rome was not burnt in one day.
>
>Looking forward to more co-operation with you,
>Petros
>---------------  
>
>
>
>winters wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I am very happy to respond to the mail below.
>> I also highly appreciate the networking systems of our dear indymedia and
>> above all the special commitments of different people from all over the
>> globe irrespective of age, colour, knowledge, standards, religion etc.
>> 
>> I hardly respond to mails like this especially when it directly attack
>> persons' personality and integrity, I mean when such mails  breaks what i
>> may refer to as official conducts.
>> 
>> we are all bonded together as one big family through our collective believe
>> 'indymedia's mission'. Hence we all volunteer to give our time and knowledge
>> to it. Some of us have lost our jobs, gave all our savings and even our
>> security  for this mission. Some of us have travelled from one continent to
>> the other exchanging ideas and building co-operation between people of same
>> minds , all to make indymedia  globally and locally work and reach people.
>> Most time people that can go this far may be able to sacrifice all they have
>> to the mission , but not their last asset- ' their integrity'.  Also, a new
>> IMC  like Nigeria , working from global south may be able to  give all it
>> takes to be strong , effective, reliable and also meeting global network
>> demands , but may also not be ready to be rumoured around the globe as
>> unreliable and non existing in any capacity. I have been opportune to travel
>> to many continents of the globe and with my work in environment, social and
>> community development , i have come to realise that just like all fingers
>> are not equal , so also economic, social, and environmental standards
>> varies from pole to pole. I have also come to realise that what is
>> obtainable in the north may not be obtainable in the south due to different
>> problems and  constrains like poverty, people priorities, societal values,
>> resource availability etc.  I have always tried to to give equal measurement
>> to all people especially when they are all not in same conditions. I also
>> believe that tagging some IMC BAD or so even when they are doing their best
>> may not be the best way to helping IMCs improve. I am sure no IMC in the
>> globe can boast that they have reached perfection.... we are all working to
>> achieve that. That i know is our goal. I advise we should be careful in the
>> way we attack IMCs especially when you actually sit in one part of the globe
>> and shot punches to another group on the other end. Most times  it doesn't
>> help their growth . This kind of mails often kill projects and ideas even
>> before they are conceived. We all need encouragements rather than
>> condemnations to help us all volunteer more time and strength to achieve
>> indymedia goals.
>> 
>> Nigeria IMC this year got funding from our partner  UCIMC and we did have a
>> good understanding between us before the funding came through. it was
>> approx. $3,000. Which i Winters received for IMC Nigeria while i was on a
>> visit to England. what we know and we are used to is when you are funded by
>> a group you at the end of your organisation's accounting year send a copy of
>> your account to the funding group or send account of funds sent to your
>> group to the donor when they request for it. We have never at anytime
>> recieved funding from IMC global . Or if we may ask , when we get
>> independent funding from any source do we send our account to IMC global or
>> send it to IMC lists? These issues are quite confusing. I hope there is a
>> balance treatment in handling IMCs affairs globally. This draws our
>> attention to the issue of question mark appearing in front of IMC Nigeria
>> link in the listing pages of IMC Document website. Same question mark also
>> appears for IMC South Africa. This page ( IMC Document
>> website)http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/WebHome#_Africa_  there are
>> links to all other IMC , but non to Nigeria and South Africa. Can some one
>> answer this questions?
>> 
>> As we all work to make indymedia reach out to all , we will be glad if
>> volunteers and local IMCs are allow to do there work instead of getting
>> condemnation for every little work done. little drop of water makes a great
>> ocean. Rome was never built in one day.
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Winters
>> Nigeria IMC
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Petros Evdokas writes:
>> 
>> >
>> >
>> > Funding Nigeria-imc: 3 items to consider
>> >
>> > In this article:
>> > o - the 3 items
>> > o - some further thoughts, and Alternatives
>> > ------------------------------
>
 hi all,

                      there is something in this i don't understand: the focus on the lesbian, 
                      gay, bi- and trans- sexual liberation process. don't get me wrong - i think 
                      these are important issues for people with anti-authoritarian views and i'm 
                      myself very interested in them not being overidden by society's dominant 
                      structures. but is this addressed everytime in the imc network when there 
                      are requests for funds or new groups to be approved? why does it play such 
                      a relatively important role in the funding request from ambazonia/nigeria?

                      i have to admit that i'm not sure but i think that these issues don't have 
                      a specific place in the german imc's mission statement and other texts we 
                      sent when we were applying to be an imc. we were never asked (i think - 
                      this was close to two years ago).

                      is it a common procedure to ask imc's-to-be for their views on specific 
                      questions now? i have to say that i find that a bit strange. i didn't 
                      follow the new imc process evolution for a while now. how many statements 
                      on specific subjects are being asked for? and which?

                      Anna
                      imc germany/berlin>


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