[Imc-india] Re: Madurai collective constructive suggestions

Wed Aug 27 15:02:03 PDT 2003

Baud:

Many thanks for your patient response.

So here is a direct poser to the madurai collective (amudhan and 
co.). Folks you have been running IMC India for a fairly amount of 
time. The newswire section has been nearly completely taken over by 
the fascists. What is it that has been done concretely by the IMC 
India re this and what is proposed by you now to 'control'  the huge 
daily  publishing of hate by the hindu right on the IMC india 
newswire ?.

IMC bombay seems to be not facing the same problem and or at least 
has had some kind of policy re their newswire.

I do not believe  there is no technical way of undoing this instant 
coffee type publishing, and vetting the posts before they go online. 
I would like to suggest and request that the newswire area on IMC 
India be shut down with immediate effect, till a solution is figured. 
Keeping it up while only the hindutva circuit us it is no solution 
what so ever. IMC india has failed in involving and attracting the 
wide range of Activists from citizens groups in India to publish 
there. In any case they cannot be demobilised having to respond and 
counter respond to hindutva posts, that is an endless fire fighting 
game. I have posted to IMC india in the past, but refuse to do so now 
given the volumes from the hindu right. There has to be a way 
pre-empting postings that promote hate, homophobia and  violent 
propaganda.

IMC India has to come clean on this, some of us are willing to join 
in but i repeat for now IMC india's news wire should be shut.

responses please

Harsh
(South Asia Citizens Web)

N.B.: I am rattled by the baud's description of the IMC policy 
rationale on 'local' vs outsider *living* in India [read native and 
not rich] as being necessarily and automatically cleaner and  PC. The 
only saving grace here is that  IMC india are progressives and not 
people directly from the Hindu right who by virtue of being 'local 
and culturally authentic and not west inspired..." could well have 
qualified to run IMC India and may end up running IMC local entities 
in future.

At 3:18 PM +0200 8/27/03, boud wrote:
>hi harsh, ganesh, rao, everyone,
>
>###
>SUMMARY of suggestions
>
>(0) Please try to understand how Indymedia works, e.g.
>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcHowTo
>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/PrinciplesOfUnity
>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/MembershipCriteria
>
>(1) Please try to get healthy communication going with the Madurai
>collective (which does the features on http://india.indymedia.org)
>
>(2) Please try to support IMC Mumbai, propose a public IMC Mumbai meeting
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-mumbai/
>http://mumbai.indymedia.org
>
>(3) Consider organising new local collectives in India
>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcHowTo
>###
>
>   i'm a volunteer in Indymedia Poland, also in the new-imc working group,
>and i helped IMC India a bit some time ago (i did actually live in India
>for a couple of years). You can see the archives for 2001/2002 to see
>my earlier comments:
>
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-india/
>
>(or if you're curious about what i do in Indymedia PL or the new-imc working
>group, please just browse through the archives:
>
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-pl/
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/new-imc/  )
>
>harsh wrote:
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-india/2003-August/000973.html
>
>hi harsh,
>    South Asia Citizens' Web is an excellent resource. You and whoever
>else work on it are owed a huge amount of congratulations from everyone
>interested in human rights in South Asia.
>
>However, the Indymedia network is something different, and i think
>there are some misunderstandings on how it works. If you really wish
>to contribute constructive energy, i am sure this should be possible.
>
>i don't understand everything in the Indymedia network, but i do (sort
>of) understand something about the parts of it where i've volunteered.
>
>Could i suggest for general reading you start off with
>
>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcHowTo
>
>? This page is designed for organising any new local collective which wishes
>to be officially associated with the network. If you want to understand
>bits i know little about, you're just going to have to read for yourself,
>maybe starting off at
>
>http://docs.indymedia.org/
>
>
>>  To  who ever is in-charge of IMC(s)
>
>Everybody is in charge collectively - we're a non-hierarchical
>network.  Now that you seem to want to contribute, *you too* are in
>charge. That's the whole idea of Indymedia. Everyone should be able to
>participate.  We don't want "superior" leaders, whether upper caste or
>upper intellect or senior in experience or whatever, who decide for
>"inferiors".
>
>But you should read about consensus-type decision-making, please see
>the links at:
>
>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/ConflictResolution
>
>>  http://india.indymedia.org/front.php3
>>
>>  Damn it, no one still seems to have woken up after a nearly a year
>>  long takeover of India Indymedia by the fascists of the Hindu right.
>
>Wrong. People are aware of it, but respect the right of the locals who
>*live* in India (the Madurai collective) to decide autonomously what
>their editorial policy is.
>
>>  Indymedia newswire in India is a mighty disaster, and will remain so
>>  if if it continues  this ludicrous free speech open media type of
>>  model.
>
>These are progressive activists living in Madurai that chose this model
>of open publishing. The way Indymedia works is that you are going to
>have to come to consensus about an editorial policy with the locals
>if you wish to contribute constructively.
>
>Participants in the global indymedia network feel uncomfortable about
>deciding, on behalf of activists living in Madurai, that those activists
>do not have the right to choose a 100% free speech editorial policy.
>
>It's not that we don't care - it's that colonialism has gone on for
>too long and we (the indymedia people mostly living in rich countries)
>don't want to repeat the "civilising mission" of our hierarchical,
>hypocritical leaders.
>
>>  This indie newswire run by  India IMC should be shut down right away,
>>  It is contributing to hate speech daily. Who are these irresponsible
>>  folks in charge of India IMC ? What the bloody hell is the IMC doing?
>>  Why is no one taking notice ? Should someone take you guys to court
>>  before you sit up and take notice.
>
>This is called making a threat. Indymedia does not work by making threats.
>Is insulting people a constructive method for "progressive" activists?
>
>>  It is a shame that IMC which is peddled as space for use by
>>  progressive movements and campaigns has been highjacked like this and
>>  IMC cant  or dosent  seem to want to intervene to change this
>>  situation. Is no one answerable here ..... .
>
>Everyone who is a real (pro-human rights) grassroots activist in India
>or who has close contact with them and who also has good internet
>access is answerable, IMHO.
>
>>  It is the responsibility of all secular activists working on India to
>>  actively and openly challenge IMC policy and its newswire in India.
>
>The way to challenge this policy is to contact the present collective
>who are living *in* India, not just working "on" India, and to consider
>starting real, local Indymedia collectives based in India itself.
>
>ganesh wrote:
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-india/2003-August/000971.html
>
>
>>  The India Indymedia collective has done NOTHING to
>>  stop the hate and has ignored repeated requests to
>>  "hide" these calls for murder and rape against named
>>  individuals.
>>
>>  I have repeatedly asked to help with the newswire
>>  editing to counter the hatred and threats of murder
>>  and rape, but no-one in India Indymedia has been
>>  willing to include me as a member of the collective.
>  >
>>  Is there any other conclusion I can draw but that
>>  India IMC does not care about or supports Hindutva
>>  extremism?
>
>If you read through the archives (see above), you'll see that
>IMC India initially started out before the "new-imc process"
>(http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/NewImc) existed, and
>that after that it was eventualled reaccepted because it
>was clear that there's a local collective in Madurai who are
>in (some) contact with expatriate supporters, that they
>are a real collective interested in and capable of
>publishing independent, pro-human rights news reports,
>and that they support open publishing.
>
>It's true that the Madurai collective does not often respond or
>participate in discussions on the imc-india mailing list. Their
>point of view (if i understand it correctly) is that internet
>access is very expensive.
>
>Here are the emails from the last (rare) contacts i've had with
>the collective:
>
>Amudhan  <amudhanrp at rediffmail.com>
>Amudhan <maduraicollective at rediffmail.com>
>
>However, IMHO, there is no reason why expat supporters like you, harsh
>and rahul should be excluded from supporting the collective, but you
>need to understand that Indymedia is supposed to be about independent,
>local media - it's not just a website. The priority is having local
>collectives which organise open, public, face-to-face meetings.
>
>The present IMC India site is in some sense only a stopgap measure,
>while local collectives in India find out what sort of organising
>is possible and practical.
>
>rahul wrote:
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-india/2003-August/000974.html
>
>>   I'd like to help with administration and I was wondering how one
>>  could get an administration password.
>
>You need to contact the Madurai collective. If they wish to accept help
>from Balliol College at Oxford University, great!
>
>
>
>Anyway, here are my suggestions to all:
>
>(1) try to contact the Madurai collective and offer to consense on
>and implement an editorial policy of hiding racist articles, using
>the imc-india *publicly archived* (and non-commercial) mailing list
>
>(2) try to support the *existing* (but quiet) Mumbai collective:
>imc-mumbai at lists.indymedia.org
>and simply propose a date/time/place for the next IMC Mumbai open
>meeting and consense on how to implement an editorial policy on the
>IMC Mumbai newswire
>
>(3) organise new collectives in other cities/regions of India - after
>all, the World Social Forum will supposedly be held in India next year -
>it would be good to have a non-hierarchical media network already in
>place. The HOWTO page is here:
>
>http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcHowTo
>
>Some people started a list imc-hyderabad at lists.indymedia.org -
>initially they pressured us to declare IMC Hyderabad into existence,
>but now they seem to have lost enthusiasm.
>
>
>There seems to be some discussion of a lobbying campaign against
>"global Indymedia", i don't see much point. Firstly, there's no point
>spamming imc-india at lists.indymedia.org - this is the obvious place
>where people wishing to be constructive about independent media in
>India (South Asia) should be talking to *each other*. This is only
>spamming people you want to support.
>
>Secondly, people on other lists are likely to either say nothing or else
>suggest you go to a place where constructive discussion can take place
>- imc-india is the most obvious place, IMHO.
>
>And thirdly, the idea of the network deciding on behalf of the Madurai
>collective that it should impose a change in editorial policy is
>unlikely to be effective. Everyone knows the arguments about 100% free
>speech vs variations on free speech, and very few Indymedia sites are
>really 100% free speech - open publishing *does* include
>post-publication *hiding* of articles. But in the present case, while
>it's clear that there are some articles inciting hatred against
>Muslims like:
>
>http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-india/2003-August/000971.html
>
>it's also clear that there plenty of much clearer and better argued
>articles analysing Hindutva and showing that fascism is fascism, e.g.
>
>http://india.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=7056
>
>http://india.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=7047
>
>and there are also lots of excellent articles not directly related
>to the fascist family (Sangh Parivar) like
>
>http://india.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=7055
>
>http://india.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=7048
>
>So a proposal for *imposing* a non-100% free speech editorial policy
>on a local collective by the network and expats is unlikely to achieve
>consensus, IMHO.
>
>Anyway, i've made several constructive suggestions above.
>
>
>boud

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