[IndyMedia Bombay] Speaking up again....

[yashodhara pawar]

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Sorry, but, I am going to speak up again.
This time in response to the following email.
And now, I am going to put my corporate hat and speak:
There is something called "non-hierarchical and non-authoritarian" but this is
not to be construed with "lack of leadership and teamworking".
No concern, even the most egalitarian ones, will ever function without a
gentle, fluid leadership which, democratically, should emanate from anywhere,
is all-encompassing in its inclusion of suggestions and ideas while itself
remaining a transparent foil to these. Again, sorry to but in and now I will
keep shut and just read.
-Ms. Yashodhara


-----Original Message-----
From:	Sanjay Bhangar [SMTP:sanjayb@hotpop.com]
Sent:	Sunday, July 28, 2002 1:24 AM
To:	new-imc@lists.indymedia.org
Cc:	imc-mumbai@lists.indymedia.org
Subject:	[IndyMedia Bombay] A personal response to bouds email

     
 
(to the new-imc group, cc'ed to the IMC-Bombay group) 
  
Hello all, 
I am writing the following as an individual and not representing the IMC here.
Take it as youthful rebellion, but I think I'd be doing a disservice to myself,
the group here, and the IMC network if I didn't say what I felt. 
  
This is in response to boud's email. Before I start, I should emphasize that we
have been very touched by all the help we've received from the network, and one
of my reasons for being involved in the network is this great support base,
networking, feeling of brotherhood, and non-authoritative structure. 
  
I can't fathom a response overall to boud's email, so I'm going to attempt to
respond to specific things said in the email. 
  
>"Using multilingual people (and most locals in Mumbai surely speak some
>Marathi or at least Hindi, and it should not be too difficult to find
>highly fluent Marathi speakers), and using a mix of printed materials,
>sub-division into language groups and then recombination into larger
>groups, is it really that difficult to have this participation?

>Surely English speakers can accept to be translators/typists for
>Dalits on a voluntary basis while waiting to get work done on 
>multi-lingual aspects of the site and on practical ideas for
>internet training.

>My feeling is that the most difficult barrier is psychological.

>It's not language. It's not the internet. And it's not geographical 
>distance nor a military barrier like in, e.g. Cyprus or the Occupied
>Territories. (Maybe Petros has some comments here?)

>The psychological barrier may be difficult to cross, but IMHO it would
>be worth it. 

>IMHO, this is a situation where it really is just a question of
>literally crossing the street, shaking someone's hand, and taking the
>time to listen, talk, and accept to share power, to spend some time
>working towards and supporting the wishes of others, to take the time
>to sort through initial misunderstandings and have the patience that
>it takes to build up trust. (And there is at least one web site, see
>above, of dalits who are well organised and internet-active... i'm
>sure they must have some local Mumbai contacts.)

>The advantage of having Adivasis and Dalits starting to genuinely 
>participate in decision-making right from the beginning would be that
>this would really build in non-hierarchy which would be difficult
>to reverse, and it would really communicate the message of what
>Indymedia is about much better - it's not just about open publishing..." 
  
I appreciate comments and suggestions on getting more people involved, but
telling us how exactly to do something is unnacceptable. We have reiterated
that we do understand the importance of getting dalits and adivasis involved
and said we will go about the issue creatively and tactfully, and I hoped the
network would trust us in this . Things are not as easy as Boud makes them out
to be, and there are lots of factors involved, and again, if there isn't the
trust that we will function and endeavour to do this as best as we can, there
is really no point in us even endeavouring to be a part of the network. I, for
one, do not wish to be part of a network which is constantly telling us what to
do and how to do it. To me, that is not the purpose of the IMC. 
  
>"Instead, what it would do would be to send a clear message, both
>during presentations in "mass media" courses and in other
>"middle-class" outreach efforts, and to other IMCs, new and old,
>around the world, that we really want to have media *by* the
>grassroots, not just *for* the grassroots, and that we want to
>encourage each other strongly to make just that little bit extra
>effort to cross these psychological barriers." 
  
Make an example of us, by showing how strongly you'll can enforce your rules?
Is this what the IMC is about? 
  
>"To avoid any worries about hypocrisy (let's not avoid this issue!),
>IMC Mumbai/Bombay people would be quite welcome to - gently, but
>firmly - put similar pressure on people from any rich country IMC - or
>2nd world region (e.g. IMC PL which will hopefully come through to
>new-imc over the next few months) to get grassroots people really
>involved and into decision-making. IMHO, the positive effect of having
>people from India say to rich/2nd world IMC people "Hey, why not put
>in that little bit of extra effort to get *your* grassroots people really
>involved?" might be even more convincing than just having well-wishing
>bourgeois westerners ;) say this to each other..."
 
  
I am sorry, but I for one, have no intention of playing policeman and making
sure other IMC's function the way they should or anything like that. As I
understand it, the IMC is a network of like-minded people to provide support,
encouragement and help, not to watch over eachother and enforce rules on
eachother. One of the main reasons for me wanting to be a part of the IMC was
the fact that it is a network of autonomous collectives, and NOT co-enforcing
groups of people. 
  
>"Having a delay would also remind people that Indymedia is supposed to
>be really radical, not just one more activist web site." 
  
I dont know what this statement is supposed to mean, but if Indymedia is so
exclusionist about its "radicalness", I think that defeats the purpose of
itself. And the whole concept of using this delay to make an example and
"remind people" sounds awfully authoritarian to me. 
  
  

 
I love the IMC concept - I love it BECAUSE it is anti-authoritarian,
non-hierachical and all inclusive. If our collective is constantly going to
face this sort of inspection to make sure we're doing things "properly", I for
one, would not want to be part of the network. Again, I do not speak for the
group, and perhaps I am over-reacting, but I know I am not able to function
when there is someone acting in a position of authority and telling me what to
do and how to do it, and laying down consequences if I dont get that done. I
may be wrong, but I see boud's email as attempting to do exactly that with the
group. 
  
In our last IMC Bombay meeting, we discussed this very issue - the IMC, being
non-hierachical, and non-authoritarian, and yet having this seemingly
authoritarian process of application and filling up of forms, etc. I defended
the whole concept saying that the whole new-imc process was more to provide
support to new-imc's, helping, encouraging and being a support, and its purpose
was not to legislate or enforce, for that is how I understood it then. After
boud's email, unfortunately, I cannot say the same, and I see the purpose of
the new-imc process being to enforce a set of laws onto us, and something like
this easily translates itself into a continuing process of making sure that
we're "doing things right." If this is the kind of attitude we have to face in
our setting up and running, for me at least, it would create an atmosphere
where I would be thinking twice about every aspect of our functioning,
projects, and running of the website, constantly thinking if the global IMC
network would "approve", and this is not the kind of atmosphere I think we
should function in. 
  
I hope we can overcome these issues and work together, for I have great faith
in the power of the Indymedia network and its ability to bring about real
change in society. Looking forward to a response, 
  
In solidarity, 
Sanjay 
--1890167-24137-1027913471=:42
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\viewkind4\uc1\pard\cf1\lang1033\f0\fs20\par
Sorry, but, I am going to speak up again.\par
This time in response to the following email.\par
And now, I am going to put my corporate hat and speak:\par
There is something called "non-hierarchical and non-authoritarian" but this is not to be construed with "lack of leadership and teamworking".\par
No concern, even the most egalitarian ones, will ever function without a gentle, fluid leadership which, democratically, should emanate from anywhere, is all-encompassing in its inclusion of suggestions and ideas while itself remaining a transparent foil to these. Again, sorry to but in and now I will keep shut and just read.\par
-Ms. Yashodhara\par
\par
\par
\pard\li360\cf0\protect\f1\fs16 -----Original Message-----\par
\protect0\pard\protect\fi-1440\li1800\tx1440\b From:\tab\b0 Sanjay Bhangar [SMTP:sanjayb@hotpop.com]\par
\b Sent:\tab\b0 Sunday, July 28, 2002 1:24 AM\par
\b To:\tab\b0 new-imc@lists.indymedia.org\par
\b Cc:\tab\b0 imc-mumbai@lists.indymedia.org\par
\b Subject:\tab\b0 [IndyMedia Bombay] A personal response to bouds email\par
\protect0\pard\protect\li360\f0\fs24\par
     \fs20\par
 \par
(to the new-imc group, cc'ed to the IMC-Bombay group) \par
  \par
\fs24 Hello all,\fs20  \par
\fs24 I am writing the following as an individual and not representing the IMC here. Take it as youthful rebellion, but I think I'd be doing a disservice to myself, the group here, and the IMC network if I didn't say what I felt.\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 This is in response to boud's email. Before I start, I should emphasize that we have been very touched by all the help we've received from the network, and one of my reasons for being involved in the network is this great support base, networking, feeling of brotherhood, and non-authoritative structure.\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 I can't fathom a response overall to boud's email, so I'm going to attempt to respond to specific things said in the email.\fs20  \par
  \par
>"\fs24 Using multilingual people (and most locals in Mumbai surely speak some\par
>Marathi or at least Hindi, and it should not be too difficult to find\par
>highly fluent Marathi speakers), and using a mix of printed materials,\par
>sub-division into language groups and then recombination into larger\par
>groups, is it really that difficult to have this participation?\par
\par
>Surely English speakers can accept to be translators/typists for\par
>Dalits on a voluntary basis while waiting to get work done on \par
>multi-lingual aspects of the site and on practical ideas for\par
>internet training.\par
\par
>My feeling is that the most difficult barrier is psychological.\par
\par
>It's not language. It's not the internet. And it's not geographical \par
>distance nor a military barrier like in, e.g. Cyprus or the Occupied\par
>Territories. (Maybe Petros has some comments here?)\par
\par
>The psychological barrier may be difficult to cross, but IMHO it would\par
>be worth it. \par
\par
>IMHO, this is a situation where it really is just a question of\par
>literally crossing the street, shaking someone's hand, and taking the\par
>time to listen, talk, and accept to share power, to spend some time\par
>working towards and supporting the wishes of others, to take the time\par
>to sort through initial misunderstandings and have the patience that\par
>it takes to build up trust. (And there is at least one web site, see\par
>above, of dalits who are well organised and internet-active... i'm\par
>sure they must have some local Mumbai contacts.)\par
\par
>The advantage of having Adivasis and Dalits starting to genuinely \par
>participate in decision-making right from the beginning would be that\par
>this would really build in non-hierarchy which would be difficult\par
>to reverse, and it would really communicate the message of what\par
>Indymedia is about much better - it's not just about open publishing..."\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 I appreciate comments and suggestions on getting more people involved, but telling us how exactly to do something is unnacceptable. We have reiterated that we do understand the importance of getting dalits and adivasis involved and said we will go about the issue creatively and tactfully, and I hoped the network would trust us in this . Things are not as easy as Boud makes them out to be, and there are lots of factors involved, and again, if there isn't the trust that we will function and endeavour to do this as best as we can, there is really no point in us even endeavouring to be a part of the network. I, for one, do not wish to be part of a network which is constantly telling us what to do and how to do it. To me, that is not the purpose of the IMC.\fs20  \par
  \par
>"\fs24 Instead, what it would do would be to send a clear message, both\par
>during presentations in "mass media" courses and in other\par
>"middle-class" outreach efforts, and to other IMCs, new and old,\par
>around the world, that we really want to have media *by* the\par
>grassroots, not just *for* the grassroots, and that we want to\par
>encourage each other strongly to make just that little bit extra\par
>effort to cross these psychological barriers."\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 Make an example of us, by showing how strongly you'll can enforce your rules? Is this what the IMC is about?\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 >"To avoid any worries about hypocrisy (let's not avoid this issue!),\par
>IMC Mumbai/Bombay people would be quite welcome to - gently, but\par
>firmly - put similar pressure on people from any rich country IMC - or\par
>2nd world region (e.g. IMC PL which will hopefully come through to\par
>new-imc over the next few months) to get grassroots people really\par
>involved and into decision-making. IMHO, the positive effect of having\par
>people from India say to rich/2nd world IMC people "Hey, why not put\par
>in that little bit of extra effort to get *your* grassroots people really\par
>involved?" might be even more convincing than just having well-wishing\par
>bourgeois westerners ;) say this to each other..."\fs20\par
 \par
  \par
\fs24 I am sorry, but I for one, have no intention of playing policeman and making sure other IMC's function the way they should or anything like that. As I understand it, the IMC is a network of like-minded people to provide support, encouragement and help, not to watch over eachother and enforce rules on eachother. One of the main reasons for me wanting to be a part of the IMC was the fact that it is a network of autonomous collectives, and NOT co-enforcing groups of people.\fs20  \par
  \par
>"\fs24 Having a delay would also remind people that Indymedia is supposed to\par
>be really radical, not just one more activist web site."\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 I dont know what this statement is supposed to mean, but if Indymedia is so exclusionist about its "radicalness", I think that defeats the purpose of itself. And the whole concept of using this delay to make an example and "remind people" sounds awfully authoritarian to me.\fs20  \par
  \par
  \par
\par
 \par
\fs24 I love the IMC concept - I love it BECAUSE it is anti-authoritarian, non-hierachical and all inclusive. If our collective is constantly going to face this sort of inspection to make sure we're doing things "properly", I for one, would not want to be part of the network. Again, I do not speak for the group, and perhaps I am over-reacting, but I know I am not able to function when there is someone acting in a position of authority and telling me what to do and how to do it, and laying down consequences if I dont get that done. I may be wrong, but I see boud's email as attempting to do exactly that with the group.\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 In our last IMC Bombay meeting, we discussed this very issue - the IMC, being non-hierachical, and non-authoritarian, and yet having this seemingly authoritarian process of application and filling up of forms, etc. I defended the whole concept saying that the whole new-imc process was more to provide support to new-imc's, helping, encouraging and being a support, and its purpose was not to legislate or enforce, for that is how I understood it then. After boud's email, unfortunately, I cannot say the same, and I see the purpose of the new-imc process being to enforce a set of laws onto us, and something like this easily translates itself into a continuing process of making sure that we're "doing things right." If this is the kind of attitude we have to face in our setting up and running, for me at least, it would create an atmosphere where I would be thinking twice about every aspect of our functioning, projects, and running of the website, constantly thinking if the global IMC network would "approve", and this is not the kind of atmosphere I think we should function in.\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 I hope we can overcome these issues and work together, for I have great faith in the power of the Indymedia network and its ability to bring about real change in society. Looking forward to a response,\fs20  \par
  \par
\fs24 In solidarity,\fs20  \par
\fs24 Sanjay\fs20  \par
}

--1890167-24137-1027913471=:42--