[imc-tech-solidarity] 12.03.03 meeting logs - english only

[blicero]

[en] english only logs of tonight meeting. soon followed by a summary in
english and spanish

[es] logs de la reunion en chat de esta noche. pronto viene un resumen
en ingles y espanol 


-:- Starting logfile IrcLog.#embarque
IRC log started Wed Mar 12 20:51:01 2003

<rabble> ok, so pablo suggested we call this meeting because we have groups in
argentina, brasil, and uruguay working on figuring out paperwork to
receive computers, but we've got some problems
<rabble> such as we don't have any money, except possibly teh mercycorps money
<gaba> nobody from argentina, brasil and chile are here
<rabble> and OSI but argentina and brasil refused that, so it's off the table
<gaba> well.. blicero from ¿argentina?
<rabble> gaba i'm just laying out the background, not yet starting
<blicero> loulee could not make it to the meeting
<gaba> ok
<blicero> and asked someone else to come
<blicero> i don't heard from anyone though
<blicero> :(
<rabble> blicero you have been at the imc argentina meetings and have some
sense of where things are at?
<mic> okay
<rabble> nobody from rosario ever responded even though they were emailed many
times
<rabble> i think pablo from chile confused the hour
<mic> would it be pssible
<mic> to break down into distinct 
<mic> chunks
<rabble> well he said see you in two hours, one hour before the meeting was
susposed to start
<mic> seccions of this project
<rabble> mic the thing is the cost
<mic> yeah
<rabble> we could ship two 20 foot containers, one to uruguay/argentina and
the other to santos (near sao paulo)
<rabble> but a 20 foot container costs $2500 to ship
<rabble> and a 40 foot container which is twice as big costs $2800
<blicero> k
<mic> storage is 220/mnth here 
<mic> for 40 x 8
<blicero> but mercycorps pay all the travel cost right ?
<blicero> (except import stuff right ?)
<gaba> for two containers?
<rabble> they offered to pay shipping, or that's what knom and sheri have been
talking to them about
<rabble> but when knom asked about paying for shippping directly to each
country they said it was too expensive
<rabble> but knom can answer that question better, also i don't think that
mercycorps has confirmed they will pay for shipping at all, just
that they are interested
<knom> they are willing to look at our proposal
<blicero> ?
<rabble> and did you sent them a pre-proposal?
<knom> We had been talking about shipping to Argentina and they seemed a
little put off when I mentioned brazil but I haven't heard anything
since last week
<rabble> please give some more background on your talks with mercycorps
<knom> I heard about MercyCorps from the person who runs the place we are
storing the portland computers
<knom> I sent an email to them and they are interested in shipping computers
to South America because they don't have anyone there
<knom> I also found out later that Sheri had met the director of Mercy Corps
at a meeting somewhere and he was interested in working with
indymedia
<knom> but the person I have been communicating with has never heard of
indymedia
<rabble> in terms of money, nothing has come through the paypal yet, but we
did get a $280 donation personally from billy upski wimsat who was
at the imc in porto alegre
<blicero> good
<blicero> the paypal still have to be pumped
<knom> Also, mercy corps might want us to foot some shipping bill
<blicero> the ftr on global imc is there waiting
<blicero> someone with more english skill could put it as an ongoing ftr for a
couple of weeks
<gaba> ¿ftr?
<blicero> feature 
<blicero> (ooops
<blicero> :)
<gaba> ah. ok
<blicero> (italy imc taking its toll :)
<gaba> the ppl from rosario proposed an idea about a party...
<gaba> but they are not here :(
<rabble> ok, so we're $6770 short for one shipment and $8970 if we do two
shipments
<rabble> and we can expect mercycorps at most to provide $2800
<mic> okay, understand better now
<knom> most likey... sheri said she would call the guy I was talking to and I
told to ask for mulitple shipments
<rabble> so even if they do come through with the whole thing, we'll be
looking at needing to raise an additional $4970+
<rabble> i emailed patricia at panta rhea with updates on ecuador along with a
pitch to fund the second shipment but she hasn't gotten back to me
<rabble> last time the pay pal link got put directly on slashdot.org, meaning
a LOT of people saw it, and we raised $800 via pay pal
<rabble> we didn't raise any money by putting the pay pal link on
www.indymedia.org
<blicero> ?
<blicero> well we can try anyway
<rabble> the rosario folks sent out a call, in spanish, for parties to be held
march 15th, but it was only in spanish and i didn't see anybody
reply to it :(
<blicero> and we can try to spread the news around
<rabble> blicero i agree, we should try, but we also need to talk clearly
about our finicial situation for this project
<blicero> i agree
<gaba> well. how long can wait the machines on california?
<rabble> this is part of why pablo wanted to call this meeting... we all need
to work together and be on teh same page about this
<mic> cali is unending
<mic> at 220/mnth
<rabble> gaba, mic can answer that, but i THINK its as long as we want as we
don't mind paying $220 every month
<mic> what *was* OSI offer e
told to ask for mulitple shipments
<rabble> so even if they do come through with the whole thing, we'll be
looking at needing to raise an additional $4970+
<rabble> i emailed patricia at panta rhea with updates on ecuador along with a
pitch to fund the second shipment but she hasn't gotten back to me
<rabble> last time the pay pal link got put directly on slashdot.org, meaning
a LOT of people saw it, and we raised $800 via pay pal
<rabble> we didn't raise any money by putting the pay pal link on
www.indymedia.org
<blicero> ?
<blicero> well we can try anyway
<rabble> the rosario folks sent out a call, in spanish, for parties to be held
march 15th, but it was only in spanish and i didn't see anybody
reply to it :(
<blicero> and we can try to spread the news around
<rabble> blicero i agree, we should try, but we also need to talk clearly
about our finicial situation for this project
<blicero> i agree
<gaba> well. how long can wait the machines on california?
<rabble> this is part of why pablo wanted to call this meeting... we all need
to work together and be on teh same page about this
<mic> cali is unending
<mic> at 220/mnth
<rabble> gaba, mic can answer that, but i THINK its as long as we want as we
don't mind paying $220 every month
<mic> what *was* OSI offer e
<rabble> $7000 for shipping and $8000 for training once the computers arrive
as well as other general tech training
<blicero> well
<blicero> the $7000 everyone agree are needed
<blicero> for the 8000 maybe local imc can decide/provide tech to do the
training
<blicero> :)
<rabble> looks like we will get the OSI money, the training money will be used
by imc's which feel comfortable using it, but clearly it's not
possible for the argentine imc to use the osi money
<gaba> the thing is only chile say yes and argentina say no. the other imcs
havent got a consensus about it
<blicero> k
<rabble> pablo said that sao paulo would PROBABLY consense against it, and
rosario did consense against teh OSI money
<blicero> anyway
<blicero> i think we need to state
<blicero> money needed
<blicero> actual dealy cost
<blicero> actual effort to gather money
<blicero> actual achievement in gathering money
<blicero> actual work in papers
<blicero> future work for gathering money
<rabble> i agree
<blicero> and this sets the point we are now and where we go pretty well
<blicero> should e go through this points ?
<rabble> in terms of actual money needed, we have accured $730 in costs in the
US and will need another $150 to get the boxes all in either
portladn or oakland.. so taht is $830
<rabble> shipping is $2800
<rabble> ecuador spent $3000 getting the boxes out of customs, on late fees,
lawyers, paperwork fees, and various things
<rabble> the flexible expenses are getting the boxes out of customs, but we
don't know exactly how much that will be
<rabble> for ecuador they charged each group which was in coalition with
indymedia $20 per computer to make up their shortfall

<rabble> now you can ship before you pay for shipping
* gaba/#embarque at phone...
<rabble> we didn't actually get teh check to the shipping company until three weeks after teh container left oakland for ecuador
<rabble> but we knew we were getting the money, i don't want to ship before we have a really reliable line on the shipping costs
<rabble> the customs costs happen later, it takes 35 days to ship from oakland to either brasil, uruguay, or argentina
<mic> could you explain more the customs costs
<rabble> so the costs are: US to reimburse what people have aready spent $830
<rabble> shipping $2800
<rabble> customs $3000
<rabble> explaining customs costs...
<rabble> well some are for bribes
<rabble> but also when you have a container, and it sits in the customs warehouse while paperwork is being process you are charged for 'renting' the space in teh customs warehosue
<rabble> then if there is something wrong, or you didn't bribe the right person there is a fee, which you need to pay
<rabble> this is assuming that we get an exemption from taxes, which run from 15% to 100% on the value of computers
<rabble> also you generally need a lawyer to fight with the customs officals, ecuador imc payed $500 for a lawyer
<rabble> the brasil imc has an import/export lawyer working for them probono (free)
<blicero> if we think shipping to brasil makes life easier
<blicero> let's ship there
<rabble> those are the customs expenses, also you have to pay for a truck to take the container from teh shipyard to teh customs warehouse adn then from customs to where ever you want to store the boxes for distirbution
<blicero> i mean we are not forced neither to ship to two countries
<blicero> neither to ship to argentina
<blicero> the important thing is
<blicero> a. getting pc to latin america
<rabble> it cost $250 to get the container from guayaquil to quiot, and $90 from teh customs warehouse to the building
<blicero> b. helping all different imcs to get their share of pc even after the shipping is done
<blicero> but timing could be different for each imc
<53rabble> blicero it is complicated
<blicero> ?
<rabble> depending on how you import teh computers and in to what country you may not be able to legally rexport them
<rabble> that is what happened with ecuador
<rabble> you need to use an import export zone to do that
<rabble> montevideo is one, mar del plata is another, i do not know if santos is one
<rabble> also shipping overland is much more expensive than international ocean shipping
<rabble> brasil has a connection, the daughter of an executive at Ryder trucks / shipping is an anarchist and involved with the sao paulo imc
<blicero> eheeeheh
<blicero> :)))
<rabble> this is how they are getting free shipping within brasil
<blicero> and doesn't she know overland smugglers ?
<blicero> :)
<rabble> they MAY or may not be able to get shipping to argentina free
<rabble> but we'd still have to deal with customs
<rabble> the border between uruguay and brasil is farmland, but there is a river between uruguay / brasil and argentina
<gaba> here in uruguay would be no problem cause is a free port. we can declarate some computers than come to uruguay and dont do paperwork to the other computers
<rabble> that's the advantage of uruguay
<gaba> just stay here until go to another place in south america
<gaba> the problem is the tasks, are 38% of the pc's costs
<gaba> aproximadamente
<rabble> i don't know the shipping costs between montevideo and buenos aires (not much i suspect as you can almost SEE one city from the other)
<rabble> but uruguay would need to figure out how to get an import excemption
<gaba> yes
<gaba> that is what we are asking for now
<gaba> in the ministerio de educacion
<gaba> we need "factura comercial" from there
<gaba> with or without exoneration
<gaba> i dont know how to say it in english
<gaba> a comercial's list with all the things in the importation and the prices
<rabble> exemption i think is the english word, although exoneration is also an english word :)
<rabble> the invoice 
<gaba> we need it to start the paperwork
<gaba> and i think that the other ppl in the other countries will need the same
<mic> in the us these thing are worth:
<rabble> brasil is ready with their paperwork but they don't know HOW many computers they are saying they are reciveing, the list apparently is very imporant
<mic> pc  -$10
<mic> moniter  -$15
<mic> thats negative 15 dollars
<rabble> customs won't believe us when we say that :)
<gaba> yes. the list and how many computers go to each place
<gaba> yes.
<blicero> ok
<blicero> but to know this
<gaba> i told the guy at the customs that the cost is 0$
<gaba> and he laught
<blicero> we need to figure out the path the pc wil do
<rabble> one thing that might be possible is to see if we can get ryder to donate the shipping from montevideo to buenos aires and locations within brasil
<gaba> the custom's guy that will help us said that if we say 0$ or something like this they (the customs) will say a higher price and somethimes very high...
<blicero> this could be good
<blicero> so pc go to brasil (who seems to be the most advanced for paperwork and stuff and can have the pc wait there for some time
<blicero> )
<mic> so papers from a lawyer or something
<mic> at this end
<mic> wouldn't get respect
<mic> at the docks
<blicero> then we go on organizing uruguay/argentina7chile with the help of everybody
<rabble> but i don't think brasil can re-export, we need pablo here to answer that
<blicero> i know 
<rabble> if we ship to one country and can't re-export then we are stuck
<blicero> :((
<rabble> in terms of costs, ACCRC sometimes says $200 per full system
<mic> what if a lawyer here
<mic> said it was worth less
<mic> but reasonable, say ~$45 us $
<mic> we could back it up with craisglist and ebay
<mic> market costs
<rabble> so we have two options, ship to brasil or ship to uruguay
<rabble> brasil has it's paperwork better organized but uruguay has a better legal situation regarding the port
* gaba/#embarque if we have the money to ship...
<blicero> let's say the money to ship comes from mercycorps
<blicero> we would need to figure out 
<blicero> the other cost
<blicero> let's try to detail some plan for it and then evaluate
<blicero> i say:
* [guido] has joined #embarque
<blicero> who helps me set up a fluent english ftr on www.indy ?
<blicero> i can then help move it to other imc and alternative media
<blicero> can someone help with corporate media ?
<53rabble> blicero i will help with getting it in better english on www.indy and putting a perment link up
<rabble> hola guido
<blicero> fine
<guido> rabble: pablo is missing?
<blicero> i can translate to many language and convince other imc to publish it
<rabble> yeah pablo hasn't shown up
<blicero> i can also coordinate a bit the self-financing effort (canadian imc, sf, greece, others have supported this option)
<blicero> more than this is out of my reach
<blicero> :)
<gaba> cool
<guido> there is some wikipage to read about the computers? or just have to search in the latina list?
<blicero> especially because going back to italy i will be even more overworked than now
<blicero> :(
<53rabble> blicero did you have a chance to contact x-y?
<blicero> i can
<blicero> try
<blicero> BUT
<blicero> we are already asking them as italy imc money for nablus imc
<blicero> and someone from argentina who got to them independently of me
<blicero> is asking them money for  a radio project
<rabble> heh heh heh
<blicero> so i dunno how much money they have
<blicero> still
<blicero> :))
<rabble> another option is asking the imc-finance for money from there, imc-finance as about $35000 and asking imc-tech which has about $6,500 right now
<blicero> mmh
<blicero> i would say
<blicero> :
<blicero> let's try other way
<rabble> imc-tech was willing to contribute something to the ecuador shipment, maybe $1000
<blicero> warning finance we could need a loan :)
<blicero> for covering cost while we get the parties done
* rabble/#embarque doesn't believe in loans with no ablity to pay them back, i'm still waiting for the $1500 i paid out to fund the prague imc
<blicero> ahahahah
<blicero> ok
<rabble> not that i expect ot ever see that money :)
<blicero> teh same for finance
<blicero> in any case imc-finance could be the emergency plan
<rabble> yeah
<rabble> we should update teh wiki pages about this project before we post the funding requests, that way folks will have things to look at for more information
<mic> good idea
<rabble> another thing we need to discuss is decision making
<53rabble> blicero proposed that each imc involved have one representive in a sort of spokes council which could meet and hash things out
<rabble> becuase we need a way of deciding to actually ship to one country, how many computers each imc gets
<rabble> we need to decide the numbers of computers possibly really soon as each imc will need to start and finish their paperwork before the container leaves
<blicero> agree
<gaba> i agree to be a liason. 
<mic> espe is heading for argentina in +mnth
* knom/#embarque twinkles
* blicero rotfl
<mic> good idea, yes
<mic> better than nada
<rabble> ok, so who are the liasons...
<rabble> we need somebody who is still in teh US, either mic or josh (knom) or both of them
<rabble> eddy's to much of a stoner i think.... .)
<knom> I willing to sit in
<mic> me too
<blicero> loulee goes on to be the liason for argentina i think
<blicero> (no one ever challenged it :)
<rabble> ok, i think pablo is it from sao paulo, as he's been doign the work, and loulee is from buenos aires, although she couldn't make it tonight or even send an email saying she couldn't make it
<rabble> guido, es vos or pablo de santiago por chile?
<guido> es pablo
<gaba> in uruguay marcelo proposed him to be the liason for imc-uruguay but he didnt appears so im here...
<rabble> and it's either ivank or hendrix de rosario, but neither of them showed up or replied to the emails they were sent
* rabble/#embarque really wants to make a request that people reply to email regarding this project
<rabble> even if it is to say that you can't make it and don't have time for the project at the moment
<rabble> but this is a huge complicated project and it's hard when people don't keep in touch
<rabble> i will try my best to write regular updates on every aspect of the project adn send them in english and my poor spanish to imc-tech-solidarity and imc-latina
<rabble> end
<mic> .
<gaba> well, about the decisions, how many computers to each place, the destination and all this things?
<gaba> we have been talking about finanzas and we have a plan but we start the paperwork when we have the money to ship or what?
<rabble> good question
<rabble> and what do we do about people/groups which don't reply to email or particpate in the decision making process
<gaba> i dont know. we can email imc-latina with those questions..
<rabble> ok
* blicero will post the log to imc-tech-solidarity 
<blicero> ok ?=
<gaba> ok
<gaba> and remember imc-latina :)
<gaba> please
<gaba> i can make a summary later
<blicero> k
<knom> I can make a follow call to mercy corps on Friday
<blicero> good
<rabble> i'll work on teh wiki and posting the feature asking for money
<blicero> good
<blicero> k
* blicero meeting's up ?
<rabble> think so
<knom> I have to leave.. are we done and should we set up a next meeting?
<rabble> so blicero can you write a summary too, english / spanish?
<mic> palletes, james cursed us as we pulled 
<blicero> summary no
<blicero> no time
<blicero> i can post the log
<rabble> the log is in english
<knom> I gotta run
<mic> okay, i should go before i get more confused 
<gaba> i said i will do a summary
<gaba> in spanish
<blicero> k
<mic> sorry, but next meeting time?,w
<53gaba> blicero, just send me the log
<rabble> gracias
<blicero> gaba i send the log to the two list
<gaba> ok
<blicero> saying it will be followed by a symmary
<blicero> mic: we set it in the list
<gaba> mic, we can organize a new meeting throught mails
* blicero stops logging
<mic> great
-:- Window LOG is OFF
IRC log ended Wed Mar 12 21:55:57 2003

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blicero
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