[imc-tech-solidarity] Re: 12.03.03 meeting logs - english only

[Pablo Ortellado]

Hello all. First, I'd like to apologize for not attending the meeting. I=20
was actually in an event IMC Sao Paulo is participating and we couldnt make=
=20
our connection work. When it finally worked, I couldnt find the meeting at=
=20
irc.indymedia.org.... Anyway, I just read the log and see that many things=
=20
remain undecided. Well, about updates from Sao Paulo, I need to tell you=20
that our lawyer  just found out a regulation that prevents us from getting=
=20
tax exemption for materials which have similar products produced in Brazil.=
=20
He's trying to find a way to get us through that, but he needs time. I'm=20
setting a meeting with some friends at the union who might help us get the=
=20
computers through without paying taxes. With those news we will need more=20
time - a few more days I suppose. We still have the donation for free=20
transportation to 15 cities in Brazil plus one of the best import/ export=20
lawyers working for us. We are checking some more practical/ less legal=20
alternatives.
Best,
Pablo

At 22:09 12/3/2003 -0300, you wrote:
>[en] english only logs of tonight meeting. soon followed by a summary in
>english and spanish
>
>[es] logs de la reunion en chat de esta noche. pronto viene un resumen
>en ingles y espanol
>
>
>-:- Starting logfile IrcLog.#embarque
>IRC log started Wed Mar 12 20:51:01 2003
>
><rabble> ok, so pablo suggested we call this meeting because we have groups=
 in
>argentina, brasil, and uruguay working on figuring out paperwork to
>receive computers, but we've got some problems
><rabble> such as we don't have any money, except possibly teh mercycorps=
 money
><gaba> nobody from argentina, brasil and chile are here
><rabble> and OSI but argentina and brasil refused that, so it's off the=
 table
><gaba> well.. blicero from =BFargentina?
><rabble> gaba i'm just laying out the background, not yet starting
><blicero> loulee could not make it to the meeting
><gaba> ok
><blicero> and asked someone else to come
><blicero> i don't heard from anyone though
><blicero> :(
><rabble> blicero you have been at the imc argentina meetings and have some
>sense of where things are at?
><mic> okay
><rabble> nobody from rosario ever responded even though they were emailed=
 many
>times
><rabble> i think pablo from chile confused the hour
><mic> would it be pssible
><mic> to break down into distinct
><mic> chunks
><rabble> well he said see you in two hours, one hour before the meeting was
>susposed to start
><mic> seccions of this project
><rabble> mic the thing is the cost
><mic> yeah
><rabble> we could ship two 20 foot containers, one to uruguay/argentina and
>the other to santos (near sao paulo)
><rabble> but a 20 foot container costs $2500 to ship
><rabble> and a 40 foot container which is twice as big costs $2800
><blicero> k
><mic> storage is 220/mnth here
><mic> for 40 x 8
><blicero> but mercycorps pay all the travel cost right ?
><blicero> (except import stuff right ?)
><gaba> for two containers?
><rabble> they offered to pay shipping, or that's what knom and sheri have=
 been
>talking to them about
><rabble> but when knom asked about paying for shippping directly to each
>country they said it was too expensive
><rabble> but knom can answer that question better, also i don't think that
>mercycorps has confirmed they will pay for shipping at all, just
>that they are interested
><knom> they are willing to look at our proposal
><blicero> ?
><rabble> and did you sent them a pre-proposal?
><knom> We had been talking about shipping to Argentina and they seemed a
>little put off when I mentioned brazil but I haven't heard anything
>since last week
><rabble> please give some more background on your talks with mercycorps
><knom> I heard about MercyCorps from the person who runs the place we are
>storing the portland computers
><knom> I sent an email to them and they are interested in shipping=
 computers
>to South America because they don't have anyone there
><knom> I also found out later that Sheri had met the director of Mercy=
 Corps
>at a meeting somewhere and he was interested in working with
>indymedia
><knom> but the person I have been communicating with has never heard of
>indymedia
><rabble> in terms of money, nothing has come through the paypal yet, but we
>did get a $280 donation personally from billy upski wimsat who was
>at the imc in porto alegre
><blicero> good
><blicero> the paypal still have to be pumped
><knom> Also, mercy corps might want us to foot some shipping bill
><blicero> the ftr on global imc is there waiting
><blicero> someone with more english skill could put it as an ongoing ftr=
 for a
>couple of weeks
><gaba> =BFftr?
><blicero> feature
><blicero> (ooops
><blicero> :)
><gaba> ah. ok
><blicero> (italy imc taking its toll :)
><gaba> the ppl from rosario proposed an idea about a party...
><gaba> but they are not here :(
><rabble> ok, so we're $6770 short for one shipment and $8970 if we do two
>shipments
><rabble> and we can expect mercycorps at most to provide $2800
><mic> okay, understand better now
><knom> most likey... sheri said she would call the guy I was talking to and=
 I
>told to ask for mulitple shipments
><rabble> so even if they do come through with the whole thing, we'll be
>looking at needing to raise an additional $4970+
><rabble> i emailed patricia at panta rhea with updates on ecuador along=
 with a
>pitch to fund the second shipment but she hasn't gotten back to me
><rabble> last time the pay pal link got put directly on slashdot.org,=
 meaning
>a LOT of people saw it, and we raised $800 via pay pal
><rabble> we didn't raise any money by putting the pay pal link on
>www.indymedia.org
><blicero> ?
><blicero> well we can try anyway
><rabble> the rosario folks sent out a call, in spanish, for parties to be=
 held
>march 15th, but it was only in spanish and i didn't see anybody
>reply to it :(
><blicero> and we can try to spread the news around
><rabble> blicero i agree, we should try, but we also need to talk clearly
>about our finicial situation for this project
><blicero> i agree
><gaba> well. how long can wait the machines on california?
><rabble> this is part of why pablo wanted to call this meeting... we all=
 need
>to work together and be on teh same page about this
><mic> cali is unending
><mic> at 220/mnth
><rabble> gaba, mic can answer that, but i THINK its as long as we want as=
 we
>don't mind paying $220 every month
><mic> what *was* OSI offer e
>told to ask for mulitple shipments
><rabble> so even if they do come through with the whole thing, we'll be
>looking at needing to raise an additional $4970+
><rabble> i emailed patricia at panta rhea with updates on ecuador along=
 with a
>pitch to fund the second shipment but she hasn't gotten back to me
><rabble> last time the pay pal link got put directly on slashdot.org,=
 meaning
>a LOT of people saw it, and we raised $800 via pay pal
><rabble> we didn't raise any money by putting the pay pal link on
>www.indymedia.org
><blicero> ?
><blicero> well we can try anyway
><rabble> the rosario folks sent out a call, in spanish, for parties to be=
 held
>march 15th, but it was only in spanish and i didn't see anybody
>reply to it :(
><blicero> and we can try to spread the news around
><rabble> blicero i agree, we should try, but we also need to talk clearly
>about our finicial situation for this project
><blicero> i agree
><gaba> well. how long can wait the machines on california?
><rabble> this is part of why pablo wanted to call this meeting... we all=
 need
>to work together and be on teh same page about this
><mic> cali is unending
><mic> at 220/mnth
><rabble> gaba, mic can answer that, but i THINK its as long as we want as=
 we
>don't mind paying $220 every month
><mic> what *was* OSI offer e
><rabble> $7000 for shipping and $8000 for training once the computers=
 arrive
>as well as other general tech training
><blicero> well
><blicero> the $7000 everyone agree are needed
><blicero> for the 8000 maybe local imc can decide/provide tech to do the
>training
><blicero> :)
><rabble> looks like we will get the OSI money, the training money will be=
 used
>by imc's which feel comfortable using it, but clearly it's not
>possible for the argentine imc to use the osi money
><gaba> the thing is only chile say yes and argentina say no. the other imcs
>havent got a consensus about it
><blicero> k
><rabble> pablo said that sao paulo would PROBABLY consense against it, and
>rosario did consense against teh OSI money
><blicero> anyway
><blicero> i think we need to state
><blicero> money needed
><blicero> actual dealy cost
><blicero> actual effort to gather money
><blicero> actual achievement in gathering money
><blicero> actual work in papers
><blicero> future work for gathering money
><rabble> i agree
><blicero> and this sets the point we are now and where we go pretty well
><blicero> should e go through this points ?
><rabble> in terms of actual money needed, we have accured $730 in costs in=
 the
>US and will need another $150 to get the boxes all in either
>portladn or oakland.. so taht is $830
><rabble> shipping is $2800
><rabble> ecuador spent $3000 getting the boxes out of customs, on late=
 fees,
>lawyers, paperwork fees, and various things
><rabble> the flexible expenses are getting the boxes out of customs, but we
>don't know exactly how much that will be
><rabble> for ecuador they charged each group which was in coalition with
>indymedia $20 per computer to make up their shortfall
>
><rabble> now you can ship before you pay for shipping
>* gaba/#embarque at phone...
><rabble> we didn't actually get teh check to the shipping company until=20
>three weeks after teh container left oakland for ecuador
><rabble> but we knew we were getting the money, i don't want to ship=20
>before we have a really reliable line on the shipping costs
><rabble> the customs costs happen later, it takes 35 days to ship from=20
>oakland to either brasil, uruguay, or argentina
><mic> could you explain more the customs costs
><rabble> so the costs are: US to reimburse what people have aready spent=
 $830
><rabble> shipping $2800
><rabble> customs $3000
><rabble> explaining customs costs...
><rabble> well some are for bribes
><rabble> but also when you have a container, and it sits in the customs=20
>warehouse while paperwork is being process you are charged for 'renting'=20
>the space in teh customs warehosue
><rabble> then if there is something wrong, or you didn't bribe the right=20
>person there is a fee, which you need to pay
><rabble> this is assuming that we get an exemption from taxes, which run=20
>from 15% to 100% on the value of computers
><rabble> also you generally need a lawyer to fight with the customs=20
>officals, ecuador imc payed $500 for a lawyer
><rabble> the brasil imc has an import/export lawyer working for them=20
>probono (free)
><blicero> if we think shipping to brasil makes life easier
><blicero> let's ship there
><rabble> those are the customs expenses, also you have to pay for a truck=
=20
>to take the container from teh shipyard to teh customs warehouse adn then=
=20
>from customs to where ever you want to store the boxes for distirbution
><blicero> i mean we are not forced neither to ship to two countries
><blicero> neither to ship to argentina
><blicero> the important thing is
><blicero> a. getting pc to latin america
><rabble> it cost $250 to get the container from guayaquil to quiot, and=20
>$90 from teh customs warehouse to the building
><blicero> b. helping all different imcs to get their share of pc even=20
>after the shipping is done
><blicero> but timing could be different for each imc
><53rabble> blicero it is complicated
><blicero> ?
><rabble> depending on how you import teh computers and in to what country=
=20
>you may not be able to legally rexport them
><rabble> that is what happened with ecuador
><rabble> you need to use an import export zone to do that
><rabble> montevideo is one, mar del plata is another, i do not know if=20
>santos is one
><rabble> also shipping overland is much more expensive than international=
=20
>ocean shipping
><rabble> brasil has a connection, the daughter of an executive at Ryder=20
>trucks / shipping is an anarchist and involved with the sao paulo imc
><blicero> eheeeheh
><blicero> :)))
><rabble> this is how they are getting free shipping within brasil
><blicero> and doesn't she know overland smugglers ?
><blicero> :)
><rabble> they MAY or may not be able to get shipping to argentina free
><rabble> but we'd still have to deal with customs
><rabble> the border between uruguay and brasil is farmland, but there is a=
=20
>river between uruguay / brasil and argentina
><gaba> here in uruguay would be no problem cause is a free port. we can=20
>declarate some computers than come to uruguay and dont do paperwork to the=
=20
>other computers
><rabble> that's the advantage of uruguay
><gaba> just stay here until go to another place in south america
><gaba> the problem is the tasks, are 38% of the pc's costs
><gaba> aproximadamente
><rabble> i don't know the shipping costs between montevideo and buenos=20
>aires (not much i suspect as you can almost SEE one city from the other)
><rabble> but uruguay would need to figure out how to get an import=
 excemption
><gaba> yes
><gaba> that is what we are asking for now
><gaba> in the ministerio de educacion
><gaba> we need "factura comercial" from there
><gaba> with or without exoneration
><gaba> i dont know how to say it in english
><gaba> a comercial's list with all the things in the importation and the=20
>prices
><rabble> exemption i think is the english word, although exoneration is=20
>also an english word :)
><rabble> the invoice
><gaba> we need it to start the paperwork
><gaba> and i think that the other ppl in the other countries will need the=
=20
>same
><mic> in the us these thing are worth:
><rabble> brasil is ready with their paperwork but they don't know HOW many=
=20
>computers they are saying they are reciveing, the list apparently is very=
=20
>imporant
><mic> pc  -$10
><mic> moniter  -$15
><mic> thats negative 15 dollars
><rabble> customs won't believe us when we say that :)
><gaba> yes. the list and how many computers go to each place
><gaba> yes.
><blicero> ok
><blicero> but to know this
><gaba> i told the guy at the customs that the cost is 0$
><gaba> and he laught
><blicero> we need to figure out the path the pc wil do
><rabble> one thing that might be possible is to see if we can get ryder to=
=20
>donate the shipping from montevideo to buenos aires and locations within=
 brasil
><gaba> the custom's guy that will help us said that if we say 0$ or=20
>something like this they (the customs) will say a higher price and=20
>somethimes very high...
><blicero> this could be good
><blicero> so pc go to brasil (who seems to be the most advanced for=20
>paperwork and stuff and can have the pc wait there for some time
><blicero> )
><mic> so papers from a lawyer or something
><mic> at this end
><mic> wouldn't get respect
><mic> at the docks
><blicero> then we go on organizing uruguay/argentina7chile with the help=20
>of everybody
><rabble> but i don't think brasil can re-export, we need pablo here to=20
>answer that
><blicero> i know
><rabble> if we ship to one country and can't re-export then we are stuck
><blicero> :((
><rabble> in terms of costs, ACCRC sometimes says $200 per full system
><mic> what if a lawyer here
><mic> said it was worth less
><mic> but reasonable, say ~$45 us $
><mic> we could back it up with craisglist and ebay
><mic> market costs
><rabble> so we have two options, ship to brasil or ship to uruguay
><rabble> brasil has it's paperwork better organized but uruguay has a=20
>better legal situation regarding the port
>* gaba/#embarque if we have the money to ship...
><blicero> let's say the money to ship comes from mercycorps
><blicero> we would need to figure out
><blicero> the other cost
><blicero> let's try to detail some plan for it and then evaluate
><blicero> i say:
>* [guido] has joined #embarque
><blicero> who helps me set up a fluent english ftr on www.indy ?
><blicero> i can then help move it to other imc and alternative media
><blicero> can someone help with corporate media ?
><53rabble> blicero i will help with getting it in better english on=20
>www.indy and putting a perment link up
><rabble> hola guido
><blicero> fine
><guido> rabble: pablo is missing?
><blicero> i can translate to many language and convince other imc to=20
>publish it
><rabble> yeah pablo hasn't shown up
><blicero> i can also coordinate a bit the self-financing effort (canadian=
=20
>imc, sf, greece, others have supported this option)
><blicero> more than this is out of my reach
><blicero> :)
><gaba> cool
><guido> there is some wikipage to read about the computers? or just have=20
>to search in the latina list?
><blicero> especially because going back to italy i will be even more=20
>overworked than now
><blicero> :(
><53rabble> blicero did you have a chance to contact x-y?
><blicero> i can
><blicero> try
><blicero> BUT
><blicero> we are already asking them as italy imc money for nablus imc
><blicero> and someone from argentina who got to them independently of me
><blicero> is asking them money for  a radio project
><rabble> heh heh heh
><blicero> so i dunno how much money they have
><blicero> still
><blicero> :))
><rabble> another option is asking the imc-finance for money from there,=20
>imc-finance as about $35000 and asking imc-tech which has about $6,500=20
>right now
><blicero> mmh
><blicero> i would say
><blicero> :
><blicero> let's try other way
><rabble> imc-tech was willing to contribute something to the ecuador=20
>shipment, maybe $1000
><blicero> warning finance we could need a loan :)
><blicero> for covering cost while we get the parties done
>* rabble/#embarque doesn't believe in loans with no ablity to pay them=20
>back, i'm still waiting for the $1500 i paid out to fund the prague imc
><blicero> ahahahah
><blicero> ok
><rabble> not that i expect ot ever see that money :)
><blicero> teh same for finance
><blicero> in any case imc-finance could be the emergency plan
><rabble> yeah
><rabble> we should update teh wiki pages about this project before we post=
=20
>the funding requests, that way folks will have things to look at for more=
=20
>information
><mic> good idea
><rabble> another thing we need to discuss is decision making
><53rabble> blicero proposed that each imc involved have one representive=20
>in a sort of spokes council which could meet and hash things out
><rabble> becuase we need a way of deciding to actually ship to one=20
>country, how many computers each imc gets
><rabble> we need to decide the numbers of computers possibly really soon=20
>as each imc will need to start and finish their paperwork before the=20
>container leaves
><blicero> agree
><gaba> i agree to be a liason.
><mic> espe is heading for argentina in +mnth
>* knom/#embarque twinkles
>* blicero rotfl
><mic> good idea, yes
><mic> better than nada
><rabble> ok, so who are the liasons...
><rabble> we need somebody who is still in teh US, either mic or josh=20
>(knom) or both of them
><rabble> eddy's to much of a stoner i think.... .)
><knom> I willing to sit in
><mic> me too
><blicero> loulee goes on to be the liason for argentina i think
><blicero> (no one ever challenged it :)
><rabble> ok, i think pablo is it from sao paulo, as he's been doign the=20
>work, and loulee is from buenos aires, although she couldn't make it=20
>tonight or even send an email saying she couldn't make it
><rabble> guido, es vos or pablo de santiago por chile?
><guido> es pablo
><gaba> in uruguay marcelo proposed him to be the liason for imc-uruguay=20
>but he didnt appears so im here...
><rabble> and it's either ivank or hendrix de rosario, but neither of them=
=20
>showed up or replied to the emails they were sent
>* rabble/#embarque really wants to make a request that people reply to=20
>email regarding this project
><rabble> even if it is to say that you can't make it and don't have time=20
>for the project at the moment
><rabble> but this is a huge complicated project and it's hard when people=
=20
>don't keep in touch
><rabble> i will try my best to write regular updates on every aspect of=20
>the project adn send them in english and my poor spanish to=20
>imc-tech-solidarity and imc-latina
><rabble> end
><mic> .
><gaba> well, about the decisions, how many computers to each place, the=20
>destination and all this things?
><gaba> we have been talking about finanzas and we have a plan but we start=
=20
>the paperwork when we have the money to ship or what?
><rabble> good question
><rabble> and what do we do about people/groups which don't reply to email=
=20
>or particpate in the decision making process
><gaba> i dont know. we can email imc-latina with those questions..
><rabble> ok
>* blicero will post the log to imc-tech-solidarity
><blicero> ok ?=3D
><gaba> ok
><gaba> and remember imc-latina :)
><gaba> please
><gaba> i can make a summary later
><blicero> k
><knom> I can make a follow call to mercy corps on Friday
><blicero> good
><rabble> i'll work on teh wiki and posting the feature asking for money
><blicero> good
><blicero> k
>* blicero meeting's up ?
><rabble> think so
><knom> I have to leave.. are we done and should we set up a next meeting?
><rabble> so blicero can you write a summary too, english / spanish?
><mic> palletes, james cursed us as we pulled
><blicero> summary no
><blicero> no time
><blicero> i can post the log
><rabble> the log is in english
><knom> I gotta run
><mic> okay, i should go before i get more confused
><gaba> i said i will do a summary
><gaba> in spanish
><blicero> k
><mic> sorry, but next meeting time?,w
><53gaba> blicero, just send me the log
><rabble> gracias
><blicero> gaba i send the log to the two list
><gaba> ok
><blicero> saying it will be followed by a symmary
><blicero> mic: we set it in the list
><gaba> mic, we can organize a new meeting throught mails
>* blicero stops logging
><mic> great
>-:- Window LOG is OFF
>IRC log ended Wed Mar 12 21:55:57 2003
>
>--
>ciao
>blicero
>gpg --keyserver autistici.org --recv-key CDAA2B16
>gpg/pgp keys lynx -dump http://www.autistici.org/loa/blicero/keys.asc |=20
>gpg --import -
>
>-- difendi lo stile di vita del DODO --
>
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