[New-imc] Re: winnipeg imc

[boud]

Hi Deja, Geoffrey, everyone,
  
On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Deja Frenette wrote:

> This is mail that I just got, I hope that someone can figure out
> where the miscommunication is going on here:

Well, each of us has different styles and forms of logic and habits of
double-checking, triple-checking (or not) what others and ourselves
are trying to say...

Hypothesis: Maybe Geoffrey did not realise that what is needed is:
- an introductory essay (why they want to be an IMC)
- principles of unity agreed to or filled out with yeses, and emailed
to new-imc
- membership criteria filled out in a consensus way by the members of
the collective, preferably at a face-to-face meeting, and emailed
to new-imc
- the even more subjective, human element of judging that a
constructive, practical, trust relationship between the new IMC and
the rest of the network is on its way

I think the essay has been included in one of the several recent emails,
but I suspect that in his enthusiasm Geoffrey missed out on realising
in particular that 
- the principles of unity and 
- the membership criteria
need to be filled out and filed.

As for the subjective judgment, well, that's subjective. Below I make
some two purely subjective comments (but also one objective one) to a
few of Geoffrey's comments.


### different strokes for different folks OK, but both are needed ###

> Quoting Geoffrey Young <DOWNITGOES at ANTISOCIAL.COM>:
 
> answers, or, in some cases responses whatsoever. i have been told that you
> are probably not the person to talk to but i guess you are. yer probably
> the ninety millionth person and ive already been sent to you once.

OK, clearly Geoffrey is not speaking literally here. It would be good to
have that many online IMC activists... ;-)

> i believe the same sort of problems also dogged the zimbabwe folks, but
> thats a whole other basket (which can be found at zimbabwe.syntac.net).

There's a big contradiction between "same sort of problems" and
"whole other basket". (I think Zimbabwe is more like the latter.)

IMHO, Geoffrey is extremely enthusiastic and expresses things in a
very "poetic" style and leaves it up to others to tidy things up in
terms of conventional, boring logic. Well, we're all different, and
for the Winnipeg IMC to take off, the enthusiasts like Geoffrey are
going to need to match up with the tidyers. This is not just for
new-imc, it's also for a practical IMC, I don't think an IMC can be
pure enthusiasm without anyone to neaten things up - though of course
the opposite is also true!

Please do not take this as a criticism of people who are gung ho and
bored with conventional (even fuzzy) logic - but IMHO we do need a 
synthesis between the different styles.

> ive been on the new imc list for a couple of months and am also on the
> process list.

Well, I would have thought that a few months would have been enough to realise
- what the formal application process is 
- why the formality is not just because we are all public-service-exam
hopefuls, it's actually because we think it helps encourage IMC collectives
organise the human + technical sides of their groups to be sustainable,
independent, etc.


### debates and shit ###

In an earlier mail, Geoffrey wrote:

> Im sorry about this fast track bs but I was distictly under the impression
> (from other int'l imc folks) that there would be votes and debates and
> shit. I was mistaken and I am sure glad as hell you can meet our time frame.

Well, I don't see a lot of votes on IMC lists - the idea is to use 
consensus techniques instead, so that dissenting ideas are thought through
rather than just outvoted.

And if you don't like debates and shit, well, I'm confused about what 
you want to do with Indymedia.

Indymedia focuses on providing news, but this news is *debated* upon
in the comments sections, and the whole idea of providing news is that
this feeds in to debate in society at large and hence to actions. If
there had been free, rational, informed, widespread *debate* in the
US, then events following S11 would have been very different.

* Debate without action may not get much results.
but
* Action without debate can be dangerous.

It's also part of the human process, getting to know one another.


### mailing list ###

Apparently Deja's first message to Geoffrey started:

> Hello Geoffrey,Feb 11
> ....finally, the last of Canadas major centers is joining the IMC network, YAY!
> My name is Deja and I'm from IMC Victoria. I am here to guide you through
> the exciting process of  joining the IMC network.The first thiing that you'll
> need is a mailing list. Go to http://newlist.indymedia.org/ and fill out the application.


In an earlier mail, Geoffrey wrote:

> we  ahve already had several meetings, doled out responsibilities as
> instructed re:mailing list members, organizational contact etc. this was at
> first me and i am only fulfilling that role until the site is up and
> running.

Well, I don't see the mailing list at

http://lists.indymedia.org

You should apply at

http://newlist.indymedia.org

and then have many different people actually *use* the list so that
others can browse the archive and get comfortable with your
collective.



### Summary: I think Geoffrey either needs to calm down and read a
little more carefully, or else, what should be possible since such a
potentially good collective seems to be in the making in Winnipeg,
find someone more comfortable with reasoned argument, debate etc. who
can respond to Deja in a more conventional way.


boud (just one indy volunteer)



PS:
> Winnipeg has a huge anarchist contingent. Not necessarily black block ones
> but the smart type that really believes in it. They, as myself have
> reservations about any sort of  proper structure as long as the guidlines
> are met and there are one or two constant contact people.

Isn't there the slogan:

"Anarchism means no rulers, not no rules" ?

The challenge is to build non-hierarchical structures - structures
with minimal numbers of rules, but without rulers. 

And Indymedia is supposed to have a variety of grassroots groups
involved, not just people who call themselves anarchists. Most of
these groups should be happy to be involved in a *structured* way in
which no group or individual dominates over other groups or
individuals...

Have you done "outreach" to other groups in Winnipeg? Women's groups?
Indigenous groups? etc.