[New-imc] Fwd: RE: CAIRO IMC (his reponse to me)

[Jay]

Hi everyone,

A further communication with the person who wrote a few weeks ago about forming
an IMC in Cairo.  If you don't mind, I'm going to strip off his name and e-mail
address from this communication for now, at least I'm positive he knows this is
a public e-mail list.  Very interesting stuff.  I'll post my response in a
different e-mail.  I'm very curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

Jay  

>
>Dear Jay,
>
>First, my apologies for the delay in getting back to you.  Thank you 
>for your response to our original mail.  We are still interested in 
>setting up an Indymedia site here in Cairo.  There are, however, some 
>difficulties in meeting the requirements, or vision, you set out.  We 
>feel it important to share with you more information about the local 
>situation here, and explain further who we are, and what we see as 
>being possible.
>
>First, in response to some of the points you made in your mail, we do 
>not think it possible to recruit a large number of people in the way 
>that you imagine.  Nor, unfortunately, to recruit contributors 
>reflecting a true cross-section of society, as would be ideal.  In 
>part this is due to our position in this society, as I think you have 
>understood.  We are a handful of academics/activists who are mainly 
>non-Egyptians, though we have good connections with the Egyptian 
>community.  Being foreign both works for and against us.  It gives 
>us, in actual fact, a degree of lateral movement that nationals don't 
>have.  Yet, as you intimate, it also sets us apart, and brings with 
>it the ease, for those who would oppose human and civil rights, of 
>politicising our activities in a way which defames us, or sets local 
>opinion against our efforts.  But this aside, in regard to 
>recruitment alone, who we are -- foreign or otherwise -- is 
>irrelevant.  To even suggest to our Egyptian friends that they should 
>publicly associate with this project would not be wise for them, or 
>us.  Neither are we expecting such a suggestion to come from them. 
>"Activism", as understood in a Western context (as a broadly 
>accepted, in some sense even legitimate, if opposed, activity), is 
>unheard of here.  Political will exists, of course, for participation 
>in civic life.  But you have to understand our context here. 
>Routinely human rights groups uncover cases of alleged torture. 
>People are arrested, intimidated, sometimes worse for what would be 
>regarded elsewhere as traditional political activity.  Community 
>organizing on the model of the social justice movement is a dream 
>here.  This is no exageration.  Large groups, as such, do not exist. 
>The few that do, exist only at the sufferance of the para-military 
>police, and endure regular harassment, closings, raids, 
>investigations, intimidation, etc.  "Organizing" is not something one 
>would publicise, or which necessarily can be achieved at all.  It is 
>actually illegal for a gathering of four or more persons to talk 
>about politics, let alone organize in defense of it.  It has been 
>thus since the assasination of Sadat in 1981.
>
>Egypt remains under an official "state of emergency."  Not many 
>people in the West even are aware of this.  And it is no formality. 
>Security services infiltrate many things; most certainly 
>communications.  "Actions" on a Western model are dangerous.  The 
>veneer of due process -- as some of us know from experience -- is 
>very thin indeed.  Mass demonstrations are disallowed.  Indeed, the 
>merest rumour of collective political expression (most often around 
>the Palestinian cause) brings the obligatory caravan of trucks loaded 
>with state security, or army forces.  This is not to say that 
>political activity is impossible.  Only that it won't happen on the 
>scale, or in the form, that you imagine.  I understand from your 
>email that you require a certain number and diversity before the 
>domain name of an IMC for Cairo would be released.  I could say more 
>about the difficulties -- or inadviseability -- of recruiting large 
>numbers, but let me address your second substantive point; that there 
>be a broad-based cross-section of society involved.
>
>Let me say first that the gap between rich and literate, and poor and 
>dispossessed, is practically beyond comprehension.  There are also, 
>of course, simple barriers in kind: we aren't naive about how many 
>people could get access to information we might gather, especially if 
>posted on a website.  Leafleting courts certain arrest, the style of 
>which is rarely gentle.  Radio has be licensed, as do all magazines 
>of any kind.  Again, grassroots media (perhaps with the exception of 
>the web, which, of course, will reach only certain people) is 
>forestalled.  But beyond only this -- which are technical questions, 
>if you like -- there are other factors to consider.  In everyday life 
>there is more than a class system here.  There is truely a caste 
>system.  Social projects exist that attempt to bring to attention the 
>plight of the dispossessed (the homeless, street kids, orphans, the 
>disabled, and so on).  But if they shy away from having, or seeking, 
>a political voice in part this is not simply a function of the 
>generalized economy of power relations.  The inertia that exists in 
>the community of the dispossessed itself cannot be understated. 
>Acceptance and endurance are attributes of social virtue; most 
>especially among the poor, who are more traditionally oriented, as 
>opposed to the more cosmopolitan governing classes.  This is not an 
>insurmountable problem, but it surely is a factor -- and a deep one 
>-- making more than simply "difficult" any attempt to "bring 
>together" different parts of this city.  I haven't given up on this 
>-- and certainly others in our group seek this meeting, this 
>dialogue.  But in Cairo alone it might take us our whole lives to 
>achieve this even on a small scale.  Some of our number have devoted 
>much of their lives to this already.  So there are levels beyond 
>simply the technicalities, which, as I say, are forestalled largely 
>anyway.
>
>As for a "working class" -- to address one group you identified for 
>inclusion -- it is doubtful that one can say that there is one. 
>Heaven knows there are millions of poor.  16 million people live in 
>this city.  The average wage in Cairo is 300 Egyptian pounds per 
>month.  That is around 65 dollars.  Average.  But impoverishment 
>alone does not make a working class.  Complex forms of solidarity 
>exist; though as you may imagine, we'd certainly have to draw on our 
>Egyptian friends in allowing these expression.  But again, the 
>question of identification -- and certainly identification as the 
>jumping-off point for activity of a social or political nature -- is 
>much more murky than it is in developed states.  For the most part 
>"the individual" doesn't exist as a category, or innate feeling. 
>There is human labor power instead, considered abstractly and 
>provided for by wages untenable much anywhere else.  And though not 
>everywhere, there is a palpable feeling that meager conditions are 
>simply destiny.  The reasons for this are no doubt complex.  It is 
>not simply because Egypt is an autocracy -- or worse, as some have 
>argued, a monarchy.  It also goes to the heart of the conditioning of 
>Islam, the legacy of imperialism and colonialism, and the role of 
>Shar'ia law in maintaining the civil and moral basis of rule. 
>Freedom of thought is a real problem here, and for all classes in 
>fact.  Freedom of daily conditions is even more problematic.  In 
>reality, labor unions don't resemble much anything like they are in 
>the West.  The government nulls their elections, closes them down, 
>reopens them with a functionary at the helm, closes them down again, 
>etc.  You mention independent journalists: there are some.  But 
>again, they are intimidated, imprisoned, falsely accused, beaten and 
>coerced.  In this general context, while we understand and share many 
>of your aspirations as to how an Indymedia in Cairo ought to look, 
>many of those ideals cannot be realized, and may never be realized. 
>If you wait for them to reach some critical mass before providing 
>them an outlet I'd say you'd wait forever.  A simple walk across any 
>town or city in Egypt -- or any area here in Cairo -- reinforces the 
>general problem: time is wasted or lost here like no other place I 
>have experienced.  People wait, shut up, go away.  I have been told 
>many times, "we Egyptians don't like politics: we're happy with how 
>things are."
>
>
>So why did we approach you?  You may think this is a very dark 
>picture that I am painting.  Let me address what can be done, who we 
>are, and the role we can play.
>
>We wanted to establish an Indymedia in order not to finalize a social 
>movement, but to open the door -- or one other door -- for the 
>beginnings of small solidarities that might connect communities and 
>peoples.  We have seen in our lives the potential of open 
>communication.  TV, radio, print media and public discourse here in 
>Egypt is largely molded by governmental agencies.  There are pockets 
>of criticism and difference, of course, and we have worked with many 
>of these outsider voices.  We are closely connected to many of the 
>leading and resilient human rights activists here in Egypt, and 
>indeed beyond.  One of our number, for instance, has been legal 
>adviser to Dr. Saad Eddin Ibrahim, the AUC professor and director of 
>the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development Studies, who last year was 
>tried and commited -- before a military court -- to seven years 
>imprisonment on various charges widely seen as suspect and 
>politically motivated.  He was given leave to appeal only last again 
>week; he had spent 10 months in Torah Prison.  Through connections 
>with activists of such standing as Saad Eddin (his case is well 
>known, as indeed he is well known, nationally and internationally), 
>among others, we would hope to energise efforts of many toward 
>defending the legitimate role of civil society in the unfolding of 
>social life.  This is not inconsistent with Islam.  Indeed, the 
>Qur'an impells its adherents, as a mark of social responsibility, to 
>partake in the social life of the cities in which they live.  If 
>these parts of Islam have been forgotten it is because, largely, the 
>government faces problems which civil society could best join with it 
>in overcoming.  But these higher goals are not ours to formulate, or 
>push onto others.  Indymedia would simply report, as objectively as 
>possible, local conditions and events, and provide something of a 
>focus for the expression of basic civil and human rights issues.  We 
>think this alone -- which is what, in coordination with activists, 
>national and non-Egyptian, is possible -- will ground, energise, 
>perhaps make possible, wider movements which could rise above our 
>more minor and immediate aspirations.  The building of powerful 
>social groups is a task which in part we must leave to others.  Ours 
>is but a facilitative role, though an important one.
>
>In conclusion, we would like to reverse the order of things as set 
>out in your vision: build, rather, the social group around an 
>established, if limited at first, focus (i.e., a Cairo IMC website). 
>We believe that we could establish this viably and effectively, and 
>also rapidly, drawing on significant experience and acuity -- both 
>legal and political.  We commit, of course, in the spirit of our 
>shared aspirations, to expanding ever more the circle of involvement 
>to different individuals and groups situated in Egypt.  Our focus 
>would not be limited, but would include a broad range of social 
>concerns.  We have competent computer support, arabic and english 
>translation capabilities, and are willing to commit unreservedly to 
>openess and transparency.  But we must make clear, before beginning, 
>our special conditions: the vast and manifest differences between 
>what is possible here and what is possible where you are; the 
>unlikeliness, if not impossibility of the grassroots movement we, 
>like you, truly aspire to, not forgetting either the real and present 
>difficulties and perhaps dangers in undertaking even a limited 
>endeavor of this kind.  Finally, we have to admit also to our 
>commitments elsewhere.  This cannot, unfortunately, be a full-time 
>focus for us.  We each have a number of other weekly or daily 
>commitments.  Yet we believe it possible, indeed immediately 
>attainable, to gather together a viable working group to organize, 
>conceptualize, and realise this important addition to the social and 
>political life of Cairo.
>
>Thanks for your attention to this message.
>
>
>best wishes/sincerely,
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/attachments/20020311/3c25c212/attachment.html