[New-imc] Fwd: RE: CAIRO IMC (my response to his response)

[Jay]

>
> Hi,
>
> Again, I want to thank you for such an eloquent and thorough response to my
> previous e-mail.  Thank you also for taking the time to explain the situation
> in Egypt right now.  You're right, I certainly didn't understand the scope of
> the difficulties (or impossibilities) of organizing in Egypt.  The beauty of
> being a network composed of autonomous local grassroots media projects is
> that each local IMC is able to really understand the situation in its own
> place, and develop the most effective structure it can.  
>
> I get the real sense that you understand and appreciate the reasons I
> responded to your message the way I did.  In most circumstances, the only way
> to build an effective and sustainable IMC is to be as diverse and open as
> possible.  Otherwise the local IMC is not a grassroots project, but something
> developed by a few well-meaning individuals who, ultimatley, will remain out
> of touch with others who deserve the opportunity to find power in making
> media.  Almost every local IMC has become stronger thorugh grassroots
> organizing.  If we were talking about an IMC in less oppressive places, I
> think we would both agree that the best approach would be to organize as
> broadly as possible, involving people from all walks of life with many
> ideas.  I certainly don't think you're saying that you're against that
> notion, and it appears to be something that, if it were possible, would be a
> future vision for a Cairo IMC.  Right now, as you describe it, that simply is
> not a possibility.  Therefore, we have to figure out the most effective way
> to build an independent media group.  That way may be quite different than
> our shared future ideal, but will have to be a first step toward it.
>
> I'm personally very open to the idea of building a Cairo IMC in the way you
> suggest, if we did it within this context.  It's certainly something worth
> exploring.  Of course I'm just one person in the vast Indymedia network.  I'm
> going to post what you wrote to the new-imc at indymedia.org working group.  I'm
> excited to hear what others think, and what ideas they may have as to how we
> can most effectively proceed.  I'm excited about the possibilities for this,
> even though it would be different than most other IMCs.  
>
> A couple thoughts.  You suggest your being part of a "separate" group of
> people, due to your not being Egyptian and becuase of your profession, could
> create obstacles to organizing but could also be the only way to do this kind
> of organizing in the first place.  An Indymedia project is one that has,
> close to its core, the goal of empowering people to make their own media,
> with their own voice.  If I understand, you're suggesting that creating this
> kind of independent media source will, by the fact that it exists, have
> empowering effects on the community that will reach far beyond an
> individual's willingness to declare himself part of a "political" organizing
> group.  The function of a Cairo IMC would be to present the idea of
> functioning, empowering, openness, that would have an effect on society in a
> very subtle yet important way.  Egyptians will be "involved" in the project
> perhaps not by becoming part of the organizing group, thereby risking arrest,
> but by finding inspiration in the empowering ways the IMC organizes.  I think
> this is very interesting, and certainly not outside of the scope of how a
> local IMC can be most effective.
>
> Of course you know one of the essential elements of an IMC is open
> publishing.  This system allows individuals to participate, often
> anonymously, in an IMC project in an intimate, empowering way.  Most IMCs
> have a completely open system, allowing any post appear on the front page. 
> Some, like Philadelphia, allow readers to rate the articles and the top-rated
> articles appear on the front page.  Others, like Germany, have an open
> publishing wire but collective members choose what will be featured on the
> front page. What sort of open publishing system to you project a Cairo IMC,
> formed as you're suggesting will be most effective, will have?  
>
> Another question.  What kind of involvement do you think you would ultimately
> have from Egyptian colleagues at the Univeristy, or Egyptian human rights
> activists/NGOs/independent journalists, or at least what sort of influence
> would they have on the project?  I know you say all of these groups have
> legitimate reasons to not be involved, and they sound like pretty darned good
> reasons to me.   The question is, how closely do you believe a group of
> non-Egyptians, even those who have been living in Cairo for decades, will be
> able to represent the realities of Egypt?  Obviously, one thing we're trying
> to do with Indymedia is to empower people to speak for themselves, especially
> those who are so used to others speaking for them that they give up on the
> fact that they have anything important to say.  Would an IMC-Cairo as you're
> conceiving it be able to go beyond "representing" or "writing about" Egypt or
> Egyptian society, to become a way for the real Egyptian voice to speak?  
>
> Okay, enough questions.  I think we're in a great place to start dialogue on
> all these things, but also to iniate some organizing.  I gather you've talked
> with some people about the theoretical possibility of having an IMC in
> Cairo.  Perhaps now that we've been in touch you can start talking with
> people in practical terms, if you haven't already, about how this can become
> a reality, from who will take on what tasks to how the Cairo IMC would work
> with other IMCs in the network.  I'll forward you the comments people on the
> new-imc list have and we can go from there.  As you like, you can follow
> discussions by visting the public archives of the new-imc list at
> "http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/new-imc/".  Remind your cohorts
> that most indymedia mailing lists have open archives, and that if they want
> to remain incognito they should take precautions.  
>
> Thanks once more for the obvious thought you've put into this.  You're right,
> what you're proposing for the Cairo IMC is something that is different than
> our usual mode of organizing, but I'm confident we can work toward something
> that can be very powerful and important.
>
> Jay
>
> >Dear Jay,
> >
> >First, my apologies for the delay in getting back to you.  Thank you 
> >for your response to our original mail.  We are still interested in 
> >setting up an Indymedia site here in Cairo.  There are, however, some 
> >difficulties in meeting the requirements, or vision, you set out.  We 
> >feel it important to share with you more information about the local 
> >situation here, and explain further who we are, and what we see as 
> >being possible.
> >
> >First, in response to some of the points you made in your mail, we do 
> >not think it possible to recruit a large number of people in the way 
> >that you imagine.  Nor, unfortunately, to recruit contributors 
> >reflecting a true cross-section of society, as would be ideal.  In 
> >part this is due to our position in this society, as I think you have 
> >understood.  We are a handful of academics/activists who are mainly 
> >non-Egyptians, though we have good connections with the Egyptian 
> >community.  Being foreign both works for and against us.  It gives 
> >us, in actual fact, a degree of lateral movement that nationals don't 
> >have.  Yet, as you intimate, it also sets us apart, and brings with 
> >it the ease, for those who would oppose human and civil rights, of 
> >politicising our activities in a way which defames us, or sets local 
> >opinion against our efforts.  But this aside, in regard to 
> >recruitment alone, who we are -- foreign or otherwise -- is 
> >irrelevant.  To even suggest to our Egyptian friends that they should 
> >publicly associate with this project would not be wise for them, or 
> >us.  Neither are we expecting such a suggestion to come from them. 
> >"Activism", as understood in a Western context (as a broadly 
> >accepted, in some sense even legitimate, if opposed, activity), is 
> >unheard of here.  Political will exists, of course, for participation 
> >in civic life.  But you have to understand our context here. 
> >Routinely human rights groups uncover cases of alleged torture. 
> >People are arrested, intimidated, sometimes worse for what would be 
> >regarded elsewhere as traditional political activity.  Community 
> >organizing on the model of the social justice movement is a dream 
> >here.  This is no exageration.  Large groups, as such, do not exist. 
> >The few that do, exist only at the sufferance of the para-military 
> >police, and endure regular harassment, closings, raids, 
> >investigations, intimidation, etc.  "Organizing" is not something one 
> >would publicise, or which necessarily can be achieved at all.  It is 
> >actually illegal for a gathering of four or more persons to talk 
> >about politics, let alone organize in defense of it.  It has been 
> >thus since the assasination of Sadat in 1981.
> >
> >Egypt remains under an official "state of emergency."  Not many 
> >people in the West even are aware of this.  And it is no formality. 
> >Security services infiltrate many things; most certainly 
> >communications.  "Actions" on a Western model are dangerous.  The 
> >veneer of due process -- as some of us know from experience -- is 
> >very thin indeed.  Mass demonstrations are disallowed.  Indeed, the 
> >merest rumour of collective political expression (most often around 
> >the Palestinian cause) brings the obligatory caravan of trucks loaded 
> >with state security, or army forces.  This is not to say that 
> >political activity is impossible.  Only that it won't happen on the 
> >scale, or in the form, that you imagine.  I understand from your 
> >email that you require a certain number and diversity before the 
> >domain name of an IMC for Cairo would be released.  I could say more 
> >about the difficulties -- or inadviseability -- of recruiting large 
> >numbers, but let me address your second substantive point; that there 
> >be a broad-based cross-section of society involved.
> >
> >Let me say first that the gap between rich and literate, and poor and 
> >dispossessed, is practically beyond comprehension.  There are also, 
> >of course, simple barriers in kind: we aren't naive about how many 
> >people could get access to information we might gather, especially if 
> >posted on a website.  Leafleting courts certain arrest, the style of 
> >which is rarely gentle.  Radio has be licensed, as do all magazines 
> >of any kind.  Again, grassroots media (perhaps with the exception of 
> >the web, which, of course, will reach only certain people) is 
> >forestalled.  But beyond only this -- which are technical questions, 
> >if you like -- there are other factors to consider.  In everyday life 
> >there is more than a class system here.  There is truely a caste 
> >system.  Social projects exist that attempt to bring to attention the 
> >plight of the dispossessed (the homeless, street kids, orphans, the 
> >disabled, and so on).  But if they shy away from having, or seeking, 
> >a political voice in part this is not simply a function of the 
> >generalized economy of power relations.  The inertia that exists in 
> >the community of the dispossessed itself cannot be understated. 
> >Acceptance and endurance are attributes of social virtue; most 
> >especially among the poor, who are more traditionally oriented, as 
> >opposed to the more cosmopolitan governing classes.  This is not an 
> >insurmountable problem, but it surely is a factor -- and a deep one 
> >-- making more than simply "difficult" any attempt to "bring 
> >together" different parts of this city.  I haven't given up on this 
> >-- and certainly others in our group seek this meeting, this 
> >dialogue.  But in Cairo alone it might take us our whole lives to 
> >achieve this even on a small scale.  Some of our number have devoted 
> >much of their lives to this already.  So there are levels beyond 
> >simply the technicalities, which, as I say, are forestalled largely 
> >anyway.
> >
> >As for a "working class" -- to address one group you identified for 
> >inclusion -- it is doubtful that one can say that there is one. 
> >Heaven knows there are millions of poor.  16 million people live in 
> >this city.  The average wage in Cairo is 300 Egyptian pounds per 
> >month.  That is around 65 dollars.  Average.  But impoverishment 
> >alone does not make a working class.  Complex forms of solidarity 
> >exist; though as you may imagine, we'd certainly have to draw on our 
> >Egyptian friends in allowing these expression.  But again, the 
> >question of identification -- and certainly identification as the 
> >jumping-off point for activity of a social or political nature -- is 
> >much more murky than it is in developed states.  For the most part 
> >"the individual" doesn't exist as a category, or innate feeling. 
> >There is human labor power instead, considered abstractly and 
> >provided for by wages untenable much anywhere else.  And though not 
> >everywhere, there is a palpable feeling that meager conditions are 
> >simply destiny.  The reasons for this are no doubt complex.  It is 
> >not simply because Egypt is an autocracy -- or worse, as some have 
> >argued, a monarchy.  It also goes to the heart of the conditioning of 
> >Islam, the legacy of imperialism and colonialism, and the role of 
> >Shar'ia law in maintaining the civil and moral basis of rule. 
> >Freedom of thought is a real problem here, and for all classes in 
> >fact.  Freedom of daily conditions is even more problematic.  In 
> >reality, labor unions don't resemble much anything like they are in 
> >the West.  The government nulls their elections, closes them down, 
> >reopens them with a functionary at the helm, closes them down again, 
> >etc.  You mention independent journalists: there are some.  But 
> >again, they are intimidated, imprisoned, falsely accused, beaten and 
> >coerced.  In this general context, while we understand and share many 
> >of your aspirations as to how an Indymedia in Cairo ought to look, 
> >many of those ideals cannot be realized, and may never be realized. 
> >If you wait for them to reach some critical mass before providing 
> >them an outlet I'd say you'd wait forever.  A simple walk across any 
> >town or city in Egypt -- or any area here in Cairo -- reinforces the 
> >general problem: time is wasted or lost here like no other place I 
> >have experienced.  People wait, shut up, go away.  I have been told 
> >many times, "we Egyptians don't like politics: we're happy with how 
> >things are."
> >
> >
> >So why did we approach you?  You may think this is a very dark 
> >picture that I am painting.  Let me address what can be done, who we 
> >are, and the role we can play.
> >
> >We wanted to establish an Indymedia in order not to finalize a social 
> >movement, but to open the door -- or one other door -- for the 
> >beginnings of small solidarities that might connect communities and 
> >peoples.  We have seen in our lives the potential of open 
> >communication.  TV, radio, print media and public discourse here in 
> >Egypt is largely molded by governmental agencies.  There are pockets 
> >of criticism and difference, of course, and we have worked with many 
> >of these outsider voices.  We are closely connected to many of the 
> >leading and resilient human rights activists here in Egypt, and 
> >indeed beyond.  One of our number, for instance, has been legal 
> >adviser to Dr. Saad Eddin Ibrahim, the AUC professor and director of 
> >the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development Studies, who last year was 
> >tried and commited -- before a military court -- to seven years 
> >imprisonment on various charges widely seen as suspect and 
> >politically motivated.  He was given leave to appeal only last again 
> >week; he had spent 10 months in Torah Prison.  Through connections 
> >with activists of such standing as Saad Eddin (his case is well 
> >known, as indeed he is well known, nationally and internationally), 
> >among others, we would hope to energise efforts of many toward 
> >defending the legitimate role of civil society in the unfolding of 
> >social life.  This is not inconsistent with Islam.  Indeed, the 
> >Qur'an impells its adherents, as a mark of social responsibility, to 
> >partake in the social life of the cities in which they live.  If 
> >these parts of Islam have been forgotten it is because, largely, the 
> >government faces problems which civil society could best join with it 
> >in overcoming.  But these higher goals are not ours to formulate, or 
> >push onto others.  Indymedia would simply report, as objectively as 
> >possible, local conditions and events, and provide something of a 
> >focus for the expression of basic civil and human rights issues.  We 
> >think this alone -- which is what, in coordination with activists, 
> >national and non-Egyptian, is possible -- will ground, energise, 
> >perhaps make possible, wider movements which could rise above our 
> >more minor and immediate aspirations.  The building of powerful 
> >social groups is a task which in part we must leave to others.  Ours 
> >is but a facilitative role, though an important one.
> >
> >In conclusion, we would like to reverse the order of things as set 
> >out in your vision: build, rather, the social group around an 
> >established, if limited at first, focus (i.e., a Cairo IMC website). 
> >We believe that we could establish this viably and effectively, and 
> >also rapidly, drawing on significant experience and acuity -- both 
> >legal and political.  We commit, of course, in the spirit of our 
> >shared aspirations, to expanding ever more the circle of involvement 
> >to different individuals and groups situated in Egypt.  Our focus 
> >would not be limited, but would include a broad range of social 
> >concerns.  We have competent computer support, arabic and english 
> >translation capabilities, and are willing to commit unreservedly to 
> >openess and transparency.  But we must make clear, before beginning, 
> >our special conditions: the vast and manifest differences between 
> >what is possible here and what is possible where you are; the 
> >unlikeliness, if not impossibility of the grassroots movement we, 
> >like you, truly aspire to, not forgetting either the real and present 
> >difficulties and perhaps dangers in undertaking even a limited 
> >endeavor of this kind.  Finally, we have to admit also to our 
> >commitments elsewhere.  This cannot, unfortunately, be a full-time 
> >focus for us.  We each have a number of other weekly or daily 
> >commitments.  Yet we believe it possible, indeed immediately 
> >attainable, to gather together a viable working group to organize, 
> >conceptualize, and realise this important addition to the social and 
> >political life of Cairo.
> >
> >Thanks for your attention to this message.
> >

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