[New-imc] Breaking down the blocks: Arc and Freedom

[PseudoPunk]

Jay wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As far as I understand, many IMCs use many variants of consensus, each
> finding its own particular way to be its most effective.  Many do use
> formal consensus, but I don't think all do.  The question here is, are
> there forms of consensus-based organizing that allow for 2/3 or other
> types of deadlock-breaking votes?  Does having a 2/3 majority fallback
> option available to break deadlocks mean that an IMC is not committed to
> the principle of consensus decision-making?  Perhaps formal consensus
> does not allow for this, do the principles of unity dictate, or were
> ever intended to dictate, that every IMC exclusively use formal consensus?

I think most imc's have suck an option. Both belgium imc's have for sure.
The point of using consensus isn't about getting us in a more
bureaucratic system, but about having a collective decision making
system that is inclusive. If consensus can't be reached, there's, for me
at least, no reason why 2/3 majority couldn't be used.


> The new-imc group would certainly benefit from having a clearer
> definition of what the principles of unity mean by "consensus."  Does
> anyone have links to any good, clear web sites on the different kinds of
> consensus-based decision-making?
i agree

> For this case, the principle states:
> an IMC "shall organize themselves collectively and be committed to the
> principle of consensus decision making and the development of a [direct,
> participatory democratic process] that is transparent to its membership"

it's not the only point where there's discussion. maybe we should
rewrite those documents ? new-imc has a lot of experience with the
documents, so maybe we're in a good position to propose a rewrite ?

> I personally don't think that an IMC's having a 2/3 majority fallback
> option means, inherently, that is is not committed to the principle of
> consensus decision-making.  But, that's the point we have to hash out.

Greetings,

Bart


> Jay
> 
> At 4/24/2003, you wrote:
> 
>> It is an essential aspect of consensus that blocking concerns must go
>> to the principles of the group.
>>
>> Allowing for 2/3 decision making to break deadlocks or in other such
>> situations is clearly in line with the principle that IMCs:
>>
>> "shall organize themselves collectively and be committed to the
>> principle of consensus decision making and the development of a
>> [direct, participatory democratic process] that is transparent to its
>> membership"
>>
>> This language clearly, purposefully and resolutely invokes a creative
>> form that allows membership to decide it's own processes.
>>
>> If a local decides, for example, that 2/3 voting in certain situations
>> is preferable to causing several members to leave the group, or to
>> avoid continual deadlocks, it may very well be the process most in
>> line with these principles.
>>
>> It is ironic to read that Arc and Freedom are so commited to their
>> definition of consensus that they continue to invoke it after it
>> failed to reach consensus in their collective.
>>
>> Also, just imagine the ridiculous stand-off that could ensue - Arc
>> could block Roge unless they drop 2/3 and I could block Rogue unless
>> they keep 2/3....
>>
>> and, as boud1 pointed out to me,
>>
>> >http://truffula.net/pipermail/imc/2003-April/
>> >It's clear that IMC Rogue people are debating the issue, they are
>> >likely to spend time having practice with consensus training, some
>> >people favour 2/3, some favour consensus, but they're surely advanced
>> >enough in discussing this, on an openly archived list, and aware of
>> >the different possibilities, that they can be trusted by the network
>> >to come to a decision on decision-making which is similar enough to
>> >what other Indy collectives apply.
>>
>> I feel that Arc and Freedom's categoric blocking of an IMC for
>> invoking 2/3 forms of decision making must be set aside.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Nick
>>
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> 
> 
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