FW: [Imc-belgium-edito] Re:Re: [New-imc]

Tue Aug 5 16:18:28 PDT 2003

This got lost in the imc-edito list, I think it belong in the imc-process
list.

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From: "pannekoek guido" <pannekoekrobert at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:47:40 +0000
To: imc-belgium-edito at lists.indymedia.org, info at imc-vl.org
Subject: [Imc-belgium-edito] Re:Re: [New-imc]

hi all,

hi to the people of imc.be, hi to the people of imc.vl.

Some remarks/comments/... on Lize's, Tuc's, Bart's mails

not provocative, not insulting, maybe constructive? :-)

"IMC-Vlaanderen is indeed a group of people (already bigger and more
diverse than IMC-Belgium when things weren't discussed in public)"

I'm have some thinkings. At the first AV of imc-Vl I saw a lot of people I
knew, in fact, there were a lot of people who posted a lot of comments on
imc.be, but not one article. One of this "commentposters" even did write in
the past, a lot, I was a Stalinist, member of the PTB,...

The people I talk about never did one report on a manifestation.

Some of these people in the past did not stop mailing me personally about
what was going wrong at IMC.be or how they saw imc.be would have to be.

I also mailed this persons some time that I would quit imc.be because of the
ways of handling discussions or critics by Mara, Kitty, Raf, ...

Also some people from imc-Vl came twice to an AV of imc.be in a way that I
could not support. Putting points on the agenda and saying they are
important is not a good way of starting a discussion.

On the AV of imc-VL, some people wanted to start a discussion about what was
wrong at IMC.be with one or two members. I think this is not possible. I can
not imagine that I talk with you members of IMC-Vl and they can point the
view of IMC-VL or discuss for others.

And if I visit imc-Vl, I must say I was really upset about the going on of
the discussions there.

So I posted some comments and insulted somebody by mail and appologized
afterwards for it.

I don't see much difference at the site since I know it existed. I see some
people post on it but frankly for me it seems more like "hey, we have or own
imc, ****imc.be".

I know that each of the people invloved in imc-vl do good things but I don't
know or making an IMC is put away for them.

"Well, right now we're about 15 people involved, from which the majority
is new to me (read: I didn't came across yet in being active in
movements). You have anarchists, greens, queer activists, hippies (even
hippies), commies."

And some anarchists are queer, some queer are anarchist, some queers are
commie, some commies are green,...

This is the same product with an other label, does not prove to me the
difference. Fact that most come out of Gent makes me even more sceptical.

And when I saw last week somebody who was so happy because of "IMC.be" is
dead", I understood that for some people it's only about letting Han en co
falling on his face. I thought also like this, sometimes, but than maybe we
can better stop all this an attac each other all the time fysicall.

"Second, we indeed want all these problems to be over with. We don't lie
about this. We want diversity, democracy and pluralism and therefore we
wanted a new IMC."

Is there no diversity, democracy and pluralisme on imc.be? If their not
would be, there would be only postings from the PVDA and sattelite
organisations but we all know this is not true. The problems at imc.be are
more complex than that, like we all know.

"We've been trying for years to make a pluralist and
positive IMC out of belgium.indymedia.org, but it didn't work.Therefore,
people want to start IMC-Vlaanderen."

Sorry,

1. by postings comments of tree lines, you don't help or even try to do
something positive.
Coming at two AV-meetings and push an agenda is not constructive and not
helpfull at all.

2. People who critisized imc.be a lot in comments but never did one little
thing to help and then start with an IMC.Vl and don't want to be involved in
it, sorry, that stinks in my nose.

"Besides that, I don't think that the problem is that people from the PTB
are involved (read my e-mail again, especially the part on future
relations). The problem is that people are involved that have a sectarian
attitude and try to bully people away, to name two experiences."

I agree with this. But they are less sectarian than you think.

"What about the lack of diversity in the IMC? Unrelated?"

read the newswire now, I said once in the global IRC-chat that imc.be was
not willing to make a feature or artciles about the hungerstrike. The answer
was: "BE YOUR MEDIA, GO THEIR YOURSELF", a phrase used a lot by Han.

"What about the disappearance of a lot of activists? Unrelated?"

Do you mean the "famous" commentwriters? The people who are happy they don't
read IMC.be anymore? Can somebody explain me then why the people who always
say that people don't read imc.be anymore, like themselves, know ALL the
articles that are hidden, know all the discussions in the lists and even nwo
don't top do to, what I call, childish.

Example: I posted some articles about the visit of NATION to the church.
Because I was to quick, it was not so good done. So somebody, Han, asked to
regroup them, wich I did. The result was that one new article was published
and 4/5 others hidden.

If I than get a mail in wich is asked" Guido, why are the articles about
Nation hidden", I think this people have a real problem. They don't look at
each article by themselves to see why it could be hidden. No, it's hidden,
so it's censorship,...

And this mail was even written before I got a new log-in for imc.be. Some
people have serious problems, but that's my perception.

"what about the stupid fights through the comment function? Unrelated?"

Maybe to a check and see who posted the mosted comments? (After me :-))
Some comments have become a mantra.

"What about the domination over and non-cooperation with local IMC's?
Unrelated?"

For now there is one local imc and imc.be. The domination???
non-cooperation, :-)

Can there please come a meeting  were everybody see each other by face,
IMC-Wvl, IMC, VL, IMC.be, IMC.Liege.

Lot's of people in Belgium, it seems want a good IMC but put now there
energy in making concurring sites.

There are wars in Afghanistan, Israel, Congo, Indonesia, Kosovo(still),
Iraq, Latin-America,...

In the States they have the most crazy government ever.

In Belgium their is the hungerstrike from the Afghane refugees,
hungerstrikes in closed center, the Vlaams Blok that's looked like a normal
party, the selling out of the Post, NMBS,...

But NOBODY posts about this, instead, we don't publish on imc.be anymore and
are proud of it?.

Lot's of summits going one, but always the same that get attention, only to
write about summits that are not known would be giving alternative info.

For instance this one:

WSIS: THE WORLD SUMMIT ON THE INFORMATION SOCIETY
http://www.itu.int/wsis/

When I asked Stijn O, if he knew more about this, he send me two articles
wich you can find on this summit.

And there, I think, the problem of IMC.be is completely told.

Peopel of imc.be don't know nothing about this top, like the most part of
people in Belgium.

Other people do and maybe will ask theirselves why imc.be doesn't make
attention about it, with all the same discussions like their were about the
GATS, Porto Alegre.

Personally, I can not know everything what happens in the world or even try
to follow all.

But if someboy gives me some info about a subject, I will know already it
exists and can search for myself for some more info, if I'm interested in
this info.

An other thing I can do as somebody who works at imc.be is hoping that
people would post articles "PUBLISH YOURE OWN STORY, BE YOU'RE MEDIA" and
than make a feature about it.

But if people think, hope, count on the fact:

"the people from imc.be have to do this", than their is a problem.

At the other site, there was this election-propaganda.
We know the results and the people involved in this, Mara, Han,... did not
talks about this, neither with the readers of imc.be, neither in the
edito-processlists. Also, there was no place to discuss the
"propaganda-features" in the lists. If you have ten people and only  3 think
you can not use imc.be as electionpropagandasite, than surely this decision
was taken democratic, but we all know better.

And I understand that lot of people think this will be the same with a war
against North-Korea, the regional elections,...

So how work on a better IMC.be?

greetings, Guido

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