[New-imc] Re: PROPOZYCJA -- new proposition?

Mon Feb 24 04:15:03 PST 2003

boud writes: 

boud writes: 

> hi everyone at new-imc, hi crystal, 
> 
> ####
> SUMMARY
> (1) IMHO, IMC Baghdad could be possible, and i
> suggest to crystal to open a mailing list imc-baghdad

Creating a mailinglist is fine, however, just don't get your hopes too high 
up. I was in Bagdad last April and then the situation there was anything but 
favourable for an imc. No internet cafes outside five star hotels, of course 
unaffordable for anyone local, strictly monitored (you weren't allowed to 
use any free email account and when we tried to post things on indymedia 
they thought that was something like email - well, of course thinking what 
they try to prohibit by prohibiting email, they were right). 

Concerning anything but a website (just so noone here attacks me for not 
mentioning that possibility): I would think that would be completely 
illusionary unless you want to get arrested or deported before you even 
start. 

I don't know how long these human shield people stay there at a time, but I 
would say it would definetly need people who have a lot of time and patients 
to work on that. 

> (2) IMHO, IMC at Large could be possible in the
> long term, but better to try with one IMC first.
> Something like http://tmp.indymedia.org seems to
> me like it could be an acceptable alias.
> #### 
> 

If I understand this right this would be an indymedia site for imc's without 
a site, right? Well, I think that would be a great idea, and I think it 
should at least to one half consist of people involved in those indymedias. 

> 
> i realise that this is not an easy URL to remember, so that
> brings us back to your wider question of "Indymedia at Large". 
> 
> For the moment, i have no idea whether other new-imc people would
> think it could be acceptable to the network, and whether the global
> network would really accept it, so i'm only speaking for myself here,
> but it seems to me that something like 
> 
> http://tmp.indymedia.org 
> 
> might be good for "Indymedia at large", since this would show that
> this is just a temporary transit place, for future IMCs. 
> 
> Or maybe
> http://transit.indymedia.org  ? 
> 
> The "Indymedia at Large" collective could then internally (on a
> publicly archived mailing list) decide subdirectories
> like 
> 
> http://tmp.indymedia.org/baghdad/
> http://tmp.indymedia.org/kabul/ 
> 
> and be responsible for helping people go through a new-imc process
> adapted to their special circumstances as a US military colony, and
> when they have a real, local, sustainable collective, help them to
> make an autonomous, independent web site and go through the standard
> new IMC process. 
> 
> But first there would have to be a real "Indymedia at Large" collective
> which is ready to do this support work. If you think you have many
> people willing to do this, you could start a list.  
> 
> However, IMHO, it might be better to first start with just one IMC
> (Baghdad) and see if the people offering help really have the time
> to do it sustainably. You could then spin off into "Indymedia at Large". 
> 
> solidarity
> boud 
> 
> 
>  
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 06:38:38 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Crystal Allene Cook <c_allenecook at yahoo.com>
>> To: imc-pl-red at lists.indymedia.org
>> Subject: [Imc-pl-red] Re: PROPOZYCJA -- new proposition? 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Boud... 
>> 
>> Interesting that French and Germans are already going to try an
>> Indymedia Baghdad once they get there as shields... let's see what
>> happens.  Have been getting a lot of feedback from people worldwide --
>> here seems to be the general idea and shape this thing is taking:
>> Crystal 
>> 
>> Latest round of ideas... 
>> 
>> Here's an idea -- and this especially has to do with addressing the
>> concerns over the "elites" 
>> 
>> Most places around the world and most people don't have internet
>> access -- in fact, I myself have lived more often without access than
>> with it -- even here in the US I couldn't afford it -- and many people
>> I know in my home state of WV, for example, can't afford it and don't
>> have access to it... -- notwithstanding places where free access just
>> may be banned... but, let's say, there are people in one of these
>> locations willing to try to take the steps to get out information and
>> willing to begin a process of working toward getting an Indymedia
>> together... They could then work under and with whatever they have --
>> phones, faxes, telegrams, etc.  to get their news out to someone else
>> who would then be responsible for posting it -- in the native
>> language, if possible and in English -- how this is different from
>> indy global is that there would be webspace dedicated somewhere just
>> to this new start-up or struggling group -- maybe a website with blog
>> access or with a list of 100 countries and sites in progress or
>> whatever.  Maybe what they have to say isn't, as global puts it, "Of
>> international relevance" but is of local importance to them and maybe
>> ex-pats or whoever somewhere else or an international audience would
>> be interested and they could click directly on that link to see what,
>> if any, independent news is coming up out of that region.  Most places
>> have somewhere someone can go, a post office or private service where
>> a person could place a phone call -- but right now, to whom?  When I
>> lived in Russia, a lot of people knew how to send a fax or telegram,
>> but had no idea about the internet -- but whom can they fax now for
>> guaranteed independent coverage of their region?  Maybe being
>> "Indymedia" in their situation is being willing to break the barrier
>> of silence and getting information out at all. 
>> 
>> Thus, say there is a site with each region of the world not covered
>> listed with contact information somehow with a group -- ex-pat or
>> otherwise-- willing to help people get going posting -- then with time
>> and outreach the word gets out and people in these remote places can
>> try -- they can place a call or send a fax and the other people would
>> post it up.....  These people could also function much like any other
>> -- some things get picked up for a center column -- others ride the
>> side.  Or they might get it in an email and then post it or whatever.
>> I think a very valid concern for people on the receiving end would be
>> the legitimacy or intentions of people on the sending end-- i.e. maybe
>> groups with not such good motives -- but a process could be developed,
>> somehow, to address that.... or maybe whoever volunteered to help
>> would know in advance this is always possible.. I am not sure. 
>> 
>> I very much understand the concerns with the naming of things, but I
>> think it is very difficult to find any term that has not been
>> appropriated by someone towards earning money -- alternative,
>> progressive, etc.. as cases in point.  Obviously, what things would be
>> called would be debated but it has to be called something for right
>> now. 
>> 
>> Does that make anymore sense?  Of course, it would mean a different
>> sort of commitment than the web and sites.  Just to get something
>> opened, individuals or collectives would need to negotiate what kind
>> of information it would even be feasible for them to receive. 
>> 
>> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________

>  
> 
> [ off-topic: i've proposed a local feature at IMC PL on human shields
> in Iraq, anyone interested in coordinating local IMC features (and
> then global) please contact imc-pl-red at lists.indymedia.org (or
> www-features). ] 
> 
> on-topic:
>   We've already been many times through something like the points you
> raise below, one of us could integrate them into the TWiki:
> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/FaceToFaceInDangerousPlaces 
> 
> If people are willing to do the support work (fax interface, 
> group that discusses editorial policy, etc.), there are certainly
> possibilities. The question is whether or not this work really
> gets done and is sustainable, non-hierarchical, etc.  
> 
> As an immediate short term suggestion, how about you open up 
> a mailing list for specifically discussing IMC Baghdad? The
> list administrator(s) could preferably be someone from one of the
> more democratic expat Iraqi groups that you know (do a google
> and/or look through ZNet stuff http://www.zmag.org you'll find info 
> on the different groups), and/or someone like you willing to 
> be supportive over the long term. 
> 
> To make the list, go to:
> http://newlist.indymedia.org 
> 
> And afterwards, see
> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcMailingListIssues
> for discussion on parameter settings.  
> 
> It would be good if you could contact Iraqi expat groups who *do* have
> good email access and have both them + the human shields *participate*
> in the list right from the beginning, and then of course the locals
> should participate to whatever extent possible. 
> 
> If people are willing to really do the sort of things you're
> thinking of, then that should become obvious from the list
> archives. There needs to be some non-internet/internet interface
> somehwere. 
> 
> You can of course create a web site very quickly; e.g. probably
> <scott at bandwidthcoop.org>
> would be willing to help, with a name like  
> 
> http://baghdaddada.bandwidthcoop.org 
> 
> but it would require a lot of people work (listening, explaining,
> communicating) for the site to become a real Indymedia site. 
> 
> i realise that this is not an easy URL to remember, so that
> brings us back to your wider question of "Indymedia at Large". 
> 
> For the moment, i have no idea whether other new-imc people would
> think it could be acceptable to the network, and whether the global
> network would really accept it, so i'm only speaking for myself here,
> but it seems to me that something like 
> 
> http://tmp.indymedia.org 
> 
> might be good for "Indymedia at large", since this would show that
> this is just a temporary transit place, for future IMCs. 
> 
> Or maybe
> http://transit.indymedia.org  ? 
> 
> The "Indymedia at Large" collective could then internally (on a
> publicly archived mailing list) decide subdirectories
> like 
> 
> http://tmp.indymedia.org/baghdad/
> http://tmp.indymedia.org/kabul/ 
> 
> and be responsible for helping people go through a new-imc process
> adapted to their special circumstances as a US military colony, and
> when they have a real, local, sustainable collective, help them to
> make an autonomous, independent web site and go through the standard
> new IMC process. 
> 
> But first there would have to be a real "Indymedia at Large" collective
> which is ready to do this support work. If you think you have many
> people willing to do this, you could start a list.  
> 
> However, IMHO, it might be better to first start with just one IMC
> (Baghdad) and see if the people offering help really have the time
> to do it sustainably. You could then spin off into "Indymedia at Large". 
> 
> solidarity
> boud 
> 
> 
>  
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 06:38:38 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Crystal Allene Cook <c_allenecook at yahoo.com>
>> To: imc-pl-red at lists.indymedia.org
>> Subject: [Imc-pl-red] Re: PROPOZYCJA -- new proposition? 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Boud... 
>> 
>> Interesting that French and Germans are already going to try an
>> Indymedia Baghdad once they get there as shields... let's see what
>> happens.  Have been getting a lot of feedback from people worldwide --
>> here seems to be the general idea and shape this thing is taking:
>> Crystal 
>> 
>> Latest round of ideas... 
>> 
>> Here's an idea -- and this especially has to do with addressing the
>> concerns over the "elites" 
>> 
>> Most places around the world and most people don't have internet
>> access -- in fact, I myself have lived more often without access than
>> with it -- even here in the US I couldn't afford it -- and many people
>> I know in my home state of WV, for example, can't afford it and don't
>> have access to it... -- notwithstanding places where free access just
>> may be banned... but, let's say, there are people in one of these
>> locations willing to try to take the steps to get out information and
>> willing to begin a process of working toward getting an Indymedia
>> together... They could then work under and with whatever they have --
>> phones, faxes, telegrams, etc.  to get their news out to someone else
>> who would then be responsible for posting it -- in the native
>> language, if possible and in English -- how this is different from
>> indy global is that there would be webspace dedicated somewhere just
>> to this new start-up or struggling group -- maybe a website with blog
>> access or with a list of 100 countries and sites in progress or
>> whatever.  Maybe what they have to say isn't, as global puts it, "Of
>> international relevance" but is of local importance to them and maybe
>> ex-pats or whoever somewhere else or an international audience would
>> be interested and they could click directly on that link to see what,
>> if any, independent news is coming up out of that region.  Most places
>> have somewhere someone can go, a post office or private service where
>> a person could place a phone call -- but right now, to whom?  When I
>> lived in Russia, a lot of people knew how to send a fax or telegram,
>> but had no idea about the internet -- but whom can they fax now for
>> guaranteed independent coverage of their region?  Maybe being
>> "Indymedia" in their situation is being willing to break the barrier
>> of silence and getting information out at all. 
>> 
>> Thus, say there is a site with each region of the world not covered
>> listed with contact information somehow with a group -- ex-pat or
>> otherwise-- willing to help people get going posting -- then with time
>> and outreach the word gets out and people in these remote places can
>> try -- they can place a call or send a fax and the other people would
>> post it up.....  These people could also function much like any other
>> -- some things get picked up for a center column -- others ride the
>> side.  Or they might get it in an email and then post it or whatever.
>> I think a very valid concern for people on the receiving end would be
>> the legitimacy or intentions of people on the sending end-- i.e. maybe
>> groups with not such good motives -- but a process could be developed,
>> somehow, to address that.... or maybe whoever volunteered to help
>> would know in advance this is always possible.. I am not sure. 
>> 
>> I very much understand the concerns with the naming of things, but I
>> think it is very difficult to find any term that has not been
>> appropriated by someone towards earning money -- alternative,
>> progressive, etc.. as cases in point.  Obviously, what things would be
>> called would be debated but it has to be called something for right
>> now. 
>> 
>> Does that make anymore sense?  Of course, it would mean a different
>> sort of commitment than the web and sites.  Just to get something
>> opened, individuals or collectives would need to negotiate what kind
>> of information it would even be feasible for them to receive. 
>> 
>> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-imc mailing list. Lista de correo New-imc
> New-imc at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/new-imc

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