[New-imc] Re: PROPOSAL chuck on approval listDEADLINE Wed 8 Jan 2003 17:00 GMT

[Media Collective]

Andy here.

I have been reluctant to weigh in on this, because I don't really feel like I should apologize, either.

Sorry Baud, but I don't think there is any comparison whatsoever between my remarks on Chuck's proposal, and his
response to those remarks.  I do not comprehend your initial positon in that regard.

There is a whole little crew of a few people who consistently, persistently, ruthlessly slag me, mercilessly,
viciously, and unjustly, accusing me of "disruption", "abuse" and "personal attacks", being a cop, a troll, etc.
every time I post, and this has been going on since the first time I posted, to Process (4/02), with a critique
of the bogus Eugene GA "imc", and Chuck0 has been in the forefront of that pack all along, with changsing and a
couple of others.

This has mostly been on Process list, but when their flame war against me flooded the list, Resolve was created,
as far as I can tell, mainly to deal with that flame war, which they just continued there.

I stand on my position on Eugene, and everything I have said about Portland edcom, too.  Nothing I have ever said
about any of them, and some of it has, admittedly, been pretty caustic, even holds a candle to Chuck's recent
outrageous outburst, and this is not the first time he has spoken to me on list in this manner.  Between him and
changsing, and a few others, they "call out the dogs" to put  flames to my ass, every time I open my mouth.

They usually express support for the Eugene "imc", and say that they "like it", and that I have to be all these
things that they call me, for criticizing it.  They never really address the details of my criticism, of the
Eugene GA crew or the bogus "imc", they only attack me personally, just dismissing my position, "because" I "must
be" a cop, troll, etc.  It's called adhominem, and that's what really should be banned, right up front.

They call my criticism of Eugene, and of them, for attacking me, "personal attacks", in a classic psychotic
reversal of reality, accusing me of everything that they are and that they do.  That's how I see it.

I was very gratified, to see Chuck0 get rebuked for a change by somebody besides myself for his unprincipled
practice. This is the first time I recall that happening.  I don't think it would be a big loss for him to be
banned forever.  But of course he feels the same way about me, and his dogpack has come to his defense, to
"block" criticism of him.

I don't know what to tell you.  Changsing has presented a post with links to several of my and Chuck's posts, and
I think they speak for themselves, but not to the effect changsing asserts, at all.  I should think that any
reasonable person who reads those posts, or who peruses the archives and reviews the exchanges between me and
Chuck0 and the rest of their dogpack, would find that they are the crazy ones, stark raving stone crazy, and
mean, and I am, well, not as bad as them.  I can be pretty aggro, and a lot of people are put off by my style,
but these guys are stone crazy.

I would gladly go to court and submit to a formal review of the archives by any objective mixed panel of IMC
people (as long as they are not chaos freaks and GA zealots who hate my guts), any group of reasonable people,
and expect them to exonerate me of all charges brought against me by the chaos freaks, even if you do think I am
a little annoying.

That's what happened in Portland, when the General Collective reviewed the attacks by the chaos freak edcom
clique, (all of whom who used the exact same rhetoric against me as these here guys do) and the GC ruled in my
favor, so edcom pulled a bogus meeting and dissolved the GC, subsuming all power to edcom, so they could maintain
and consolidate their already established hegemony over the site, and purge me from the site.  They explicitly
cited my criticism of Eugene, and of Warcry, Eugene's main sponsor with new-imc, as the basis for my being
purged.

So the chaos freaks in Portland got their revenge for my criticism of Eugene and Warcry and edcom and I have come
back to these global lists seeking recourse, which obviously still has to be built, brick by brick, in Process
and Resolve, which is taking forever.  These same guys have been calling for my removal from Process and Resolve
ever since i started posting, and they will never give up, and neither will I.

I have polemicized at length on the details of this saga, and could assemble a collection of links to illustrate
it, and polemicize some more, if there is an arena to do that, and I would be confident of any reasonable group
of people deciding that all of my criticism has been a) accurate  b) more principled that anything my detractors
have said about me.  c) absolutely necessary to consider and act on, to preserve the integrity of IMC.  d) I have
also brought positive, principled and viable practical proposals, including my more recent polemics and
proposals, including one of the items cited in changsings latest post.  He presents it as "proof" that I am
whack, but I would present that polemic as proof that he is whack, for thinking it proves I am whack.  I think
its a good polemic, and I'm proud of it.  It's mainly about democracy, which the chaos freaks absolutely hate,
worse than anything.

Who will decide?  How I wish I could get a rational reasonable decision from IMC, because I think it would be in
my "favor".  How I wish more people would speak up on these "discussion" lists!  I have corresponded with a few
people who say I have support, but almost none of them will post to that effect, because they are afraid of
getting flamed to death by the chaos freaks, and/or are somewhat put off by my own style.  This is most
diconcerting for me, and I wish they would reconsider, and come to my defense, because I am at the mercy of these
swine, who are determined to hound me out of IMC forever, for criticising their elitist anti-democratic bourgeois
ultra-individualist tendency.

I appeal to the gobal network.  Both me and Chuck refuse to apologize, although I truly am sorry it has come to
this.  If you ban us both, I will consider that a gross injustice.  If you look at my polemic, to which Chuck0
responded so outrageously, there is no basis for his insane claim that I "made him" do that, such that he is "not
responsible" for so blatantly and deliberately violating list protocol, with such brutally abusive, sexually
violent, absolutely unfounded language.

I think Chuck0's outburst is all just a set up, just to create a hubris, and just part of the campaign to attempt
to drive me from the arena.  If anyone should be driven from the arena it is Chuck, and I would also nominate
changsing too.  They are both absolutely insane for defending Chucks behaviior, and also for calling for my
removal "because of Chucks behavior"!?!   What is up with that? The fact that any of you would even entertain
such remarks without throwing them both out on their ear is beyond my comprehension.

Please don't let them do this to me any more.  Please make them stop.  Look at the archives, and look at my
recent polemics.  I stand by them as legitimate in their principled criticism, and in their positive proposals
for resolution and process, whether you like my style or not.  I have struggled, with some success, to improve my
style.  Chuck has only gotten more and more abusive.

I call for consensus, or a vote on this matter, to put the blame for this flame war where it belongs, on the
chaos freaks, who hate democracy, and who hate me for advocating democracy.

Andy Rice (aka android9)