[New-imc] Re: offer of diplomatic assistance for Iran imc

[blue.pi]

Geoffrey Young writes: 

Anywyas, im having some extra time and I would like to offer diplomatic 
assistance and even guidance (if necessary) to the Iranian IMC in order to
> keep up forward progress. 
> 

Thanks. Maybe you should coordinate with Arc then. 

> It seems that some of the middle eastern imcs can, at times, be prone to
> having ipersonal disagreements snowball (guess IRan doesnt get much snow)

And you might need to do some research about the region: Iran even has some 
nice ski areas, but I think you can still help even if you didn’t know that 
;) 

> 
> In order to keep the Iran IMC up, something that IMCers everywhere want to
> see (especially before the US attacks it), the interpersonal problems have
> to be overcome. 
> 

Once again: This conflict may look personal, but I have never met Petros in 
person, nor have I worked with him on any other list, so there has never 
been any tension between us before. What you have seen on this list is all 
there is to the conflict. 

> Blue Pi it seems thinks thatshe has been slighted. What she needs to do is
> clearly state all of her concerns and problems, in a straight forward
> manner with faith that her concerns will be addressed and her problems will
> be solved.
> At the same time Petros must inded respond to the concerns in a way that
> addresses Blue Pi concerns. Neither person should try to prove that they
> are right and the other wrong. 

This is not a question of right or wrong - unless you believe in telepathy 
or other powers to find out what is happening in a place where you are not. 
This is not even really an argument. 

Petros is accusing me of things I have never done and he is accusing me of 
things I presumable do in Beirut, while he is not here and has never 
inquired if any of his assumptions are true. Neither has he so far given any 
hint of evidence or any other clue, why he thinks I could be doing those 
things. I and another woman from IMC Beirut have already told him in 
Novemeber that his assumption have nothing to do with the reality here, but 
he keeps attacking me for the same things. 

In the past I have had several heated discussions with people within 
indymedia about political issues, e.g. male dominance in indymedia groups 
etc. The difference in these discussions was always that there was a reason 
for them and that was: We had opposite opinions. It made sense to argue 
because no matter how insane the discussion became, there was still a chance 
to come to an agreement, convince the other person or maybe just as you 
mention here, win the argument. 

However, with Petros I don’t see any reason to argue, because he makes 
things up. I have said this before: I can not even defend myself, because 
his accusations have nothing to do with me. 

Imagine, your flatmate tells you everyday, that you should stop eating his 
strawberry jogurths and everyday you tell him, that you never ate a single 
one and that you don’t even like strawberry jogurt. Now if these arguments 
get worse and worse, what would you do? Well, I would say: move out as fast 
as possible, because obviously your flatmate is insane. This is why I am 
leaving this list. 


But since all of this doesn’t seem so clear to you, here are some examples: 

Petros writes:
> -------------   
> 
> 
> Bart and Arc, 
> 
> I just wanted you to know that for reasons unknown to
> me, people in imc-beirut and in the new-imc working
> group, are being told by Hannah (blue pi), that I am
> accusing her (of what?) and making things difficult for
> her.  
> 

Here Petros uses a known subject: I misinfrom, I lie, I impose. What 
acctually happend is: When he writes his emails accusing me of all sorts of 
things (e.g. being a crusader, imposing a website on IMC Beirut, branching 
personal contacts), he likes to crosspost them on all sorts of lists instead 
of leaving the discussion here. Then later, he complains that I have “told” 
people that he is accusing me. No, I have not told people in Beirut, I 
didn’t need to tell them, because he informed them himself of his opinion of 
me, *and* they know how to read. 

When some one attackes you, and then when you want to talk about it denies 
that he ever attacked you and calls you a lier, well, what is there to say? 
Like with the strawberry jogurths: get the fuck out of here! 

Here are some quotes from Petro’s earlier emails directed towards me: 

>I also
>think that you need to re-assess your own offers to
>help various imc-groups, as you have been doing
>recently, because the building of trust among people
>and organizations involved in this global struggle of
>life and death, requires an approach *different* from
>what I have seen you doing so far. 

I am acctually only helping imc Iran and then I inquired if there was 
anything I could do in the case of IMC Istanbul. So does it make sense to 
tell a member of the Newimc group that they must slowdown, when they are 
acctually just helping *one* IMC? I think what Petros can only mean is that 
I should stop completely: if one is too much, than zero must be the right 
amount, according to logic. 

Then there is this sentence “requires an approach *different* from what I 
have seen you doing so far”. Petros always throws in sentences like that, 
but he never explains, what he has seen, what he thinks the different 
approach must be etc. 

Another quote: 

>I'm forwarding a copy of this to imc-communication,
>because you have been branching your personal contacts
>within imc to many groups recently, and the liaisons
>there should all be made more of aware of this,

What happened: I heared about the problems IMC Istanbul had, because they 
wrote to the german-tech list asking for help. I thought this could be of 
concern to Newimc and informed this list. So what Petros calls here 
“branching personal contacts” is actually called networking and that is what 
activists *should* do. However, he makes it sound like I did a really evil 
thing that needs to be brought to the attention of imc-communication. 

>It is *our* responsibility that our colleagues
>in Beirut are still being told by imc sources,
>erroneously, that having an imc group and having a 
>website is the same thing. We need to give relief to
>our Beirut colleagues from this terrible dilemma which
>has been placed on them. 

I guess Petros could claim that he is not talking about me, when he writes 
“imc sources”. But who else could he be talking about? Himself? Concerning 
the content of the accusation: I ve already stated before: The people here 
wanted a website badly when I arrived here and they were quite disappointed 
when I told them that it would take a while to go through the process. 

So Petros is completely making this up. It is the opposite of what he is 
saying. But even, let’s say there was a point to it, how would he know about 
it? Is it o.k. to just attack individual members of an IMC for what they are 
doing inside that IMC, if you have very scarce information on that? I think 
that totally contradicts our idea of autonomy - especially if like in this 
case several people within the Beirut group have stated on the new imc list 
that they don’t share Petros opinion and are opposed to his interference. 

BTW, this is really condescending to the group here: as if I could just tell 
lies and people would believe them here and now they need to be freed. 

This was the first attack in November: 

>I see that as group, you may think that if you make a
>website ready, that your application to new-imc might
>go through more easily. Itís true that unfortunately
>this happens with some imc groups,  because some of our
>colleagues are not clear in what they do.
>Irresponsibly, they encourage imc groups to form
>quickly and to develop technically (create a website
>and apply for membership), without any attention to
>group process, or with only a shallow attention to
>politics. We keep having disasters when we follow that
>policy. For that reason, I assure you that wherever my
>opinion has any weight, I will continue to oppose that
>policy - it is nothing more than a leftist/ progressive
>version of missionaries ("soft crucades" to
>proselytize), married to techno- philanthropy (instead
>of money, donating access to the net for selected
>allies and colonised communties), both of which have
>done humanity a *lot* of damage, especially to us who
>live in the global colonies. 

>And for those of us who live in the Middle East, we
>know directly that if we ignore political realities,
>and just allow the missionaries, crucaders, and
>philanthropists to shape the forms of our struggle for
>liberation, our communities suffer death and
>destruction.

Like the “imc sources”, I wouldn’t know who else could be addressed here as 
“missionaries, crusaders and philanthropists”. I also assume that if he 
didn’t mean me, he would have clearified that after I protested. 

I do find these terms highly offensive and anyone living here would. Of 
course, I don’t know if people who are not that familiar with the Middle 
East (and after all Cyprus does seem today much more part of Europe than 
part of this region) can understand what a great insult they are. 

These were just some examples, there are many more, and I have not found one 
that names an action I could defend or appologize for. 

You can read the originals here: 

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/new-imc/2003-February/003402.html 

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/new-imc/2003-February/003423.html 

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/new-imc/2002-October/002988.html 


Even though the emails don’t state nothing about myself and my actions, they 
do state something about Petros. It does seem like he has a big problem with 
anything related to tech, websites etc. He seems to hate anyone 
tech-oriented, he made that also clear in one of the emails, where he calls 
the techies bourgois individualists. 

I acctually think, this needs to be discussed, because I don’t think it is 
right to artificially slow people down in this region when they want to set 
up a website, especially not when we think it is completely normal that 
imc’s in Europe and Northamerica have their website immidiatly. 

I have said before, that the group here was really eager to get a website 
already when I arrived and I really don’t see why they shouldn’t have one. 
Concerning myself: I am not even particularly tech-oriented, I just know 
some HTML, which I have mostly taught myself, and you can believe me that I 
would much rather paint placards with the others right now than just sit 
alone on my laptop in my cold livingroom. 


bye you all - hope to see you on some other list under better circumstances, 

blue 

 

Get pgp key for bluepee3 at yahoo.com at www.keyserver.net