[New-imc]

[PseudoPunk]

Hey Neil,


Neil Oolie wrote:
> Greetings:
> 
> Summary:
> 
> My name is Neil Oolie. I am a member of Ithaca's IndyMedia. We have
> had a lot of internal problems and I frequently find myself
> disagreeing with Arc and Eric, and they on occasion with each other.
> I feel a certain sympathy with the sentiment regards removing Arc and
> Eric/Freedom from this list. That said I feel I must ask you to
> reconsider removing either or both of them from this list as
> participants.
> 
> 1) An Intro of myself. Below is part of my intro to the us-process
> list:
> 
> ----- snip -----
> 
> Before getting involved with Indymedia I was involved with a local 
> organization, The Progressive Media Alliance. I only knew the
> difference between the corporate owned media, local public radio and
> tv, a few small local papers and the campus papers I had been
> involved in at the University of Buffalo (20 some odd years ago).
> 
> ----- snip -----
> 
> The full intro is at
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-us-process/2003-May/000044.html
> 
> 
> In response Dave's question of age I am 48.
> 
> Admittedly, I have at been viewed at times as being equally verbose
> and controversial as everyone else in our group, as well as
> chrystine, a former ithican who has also been active on this list.
> 
> 2) I looked at this list at the behest of Brian, another Imc-Ithaca
> member. We are at the beginning of starting a formal conflict
> resolution process with an outside person very familiar with conflict
> resolution and in our discussion this list came up. Previously I only
> subscribed to the imc-process list and the us sub list.
> 
> I was scanning the subjects and noticed the proposal to drop Arc and
> Eric from the list. I feel that dropping someone from a working group
> in this manner is just a whisker shy of the death penalty. The
> problem is that in a world where we are striving for diversity of
> opinion and inclusiveness we are pushing out people with whom we
> disagree, mainly because of communication style, out of a group. What
> does this say about tolerance.

It's not about disagreement.
Arc & Freedom just block completely valid imc's way past deadline with
nearly no argumentation
> 
> Further while Arc is not our liaison Eric is our agreed upon liaison.
> It can be perceived as ejecting Ithaca.

New Imc is a working group consisting of volunteers. This isn't a liason
list.

> 
> I do not think we want to be viewed as a monolithic system that kicks
> out those with whom we have problems or denies the voice of others
> access to be heard. This is, in my opinion one of the services
> IndyMedia offers which is lacking in the rest of our "main stream
> media"

They're the first 2 go in 2 years of existing of this group. Any group
has the right to kick out people who prevent them from working or
existing in a normal way.
Believe me, in any real-life group they would have been removed way sooner.

> 
> I am not blocking this proposal, I am asking that the initiator
> consider withdrawing the proposal.

I don't & others whou agree will probably also not reconsider it.


>> From Dragon:
> 
> principle #6 -
> http://docs.indymedia.org/twiki/bin/view/Global/PrinciplesOfUnity
> 
> "6. All IMC's recognize the importance of process to social change
> and are committed to the development of non-hierarchical and
> anti-authoritarian relationships, from interpersonal relationships to
> group dynamics. Therefore, shall organize themselves collectively and
> be committed to the principle of consensus decision making and the
> development of a direct, participatory democratic process] that is
> transparent to its membership."
> 
> One of the aspects of the above includes, in my opinion, a commitment
> to try to go out of our way to work with people with whom we have
> political or personal differences instead of using process to try to
> exclude them or dictate their involvement. You may not, as i
> frequently do not, agree with or appreciate their method of
> communication, but to kick them out is a whole other story.


> 3) As part of my attempt to help my Imc resolve its issues, and
> before I looked at this list, I had already decided to ask
> Eric/Freedom to resign as liaison. One of the things I see is his not
> formally separating his own issues from the Imc-Ithaca issues. This
> would partly be for our conflict resolution stuff, as well as a
> response to what I have seen on the process and us-process lists.
> Until then he is our accepted liaison. There have been other posts
> asking that he not be considered such, but we did have consensus at
> two successive meetings.
> 
> Tho the original proposal only mentioned Arc I did see Eric mentioned
> in a later posts by gekked and boud. Later posts made no distinction
> between the two individuals. While this may have been an oversight it
> does cloud the issue. Removing Arc, or anyone not a liaison is one
> thing, but removing some one who has been concensed upon and
> (nominally at least) speaks for an accepted IMC is something else.

see above,
this is a volunteer driven WG, not a liason list.

> 4) As I have read these lists and seen several people ask that others
> be eliminated from them I realized that there are problems in
> paradise that are not being addressed. To some IndyMedia has been
> around all their adult life. To me IndyMedia is a very new and
> fragile organization. As a plant can grow to quickly and wind up with
> a spindly stem unable to support itself so can we. When I was first
> becoming involved I noticed a definite lack of purpose or goal in our
> philosophy. Two things come up in Ithaca. Are we here to provide the
> stories/media (paraphrased from one of chrystines posts/suggestions
> to Eric) or are we here to provide the forum or means for these to be
> expressed.
> 
> The very founding of IndyMedia reflects this. From what I have seen
> IndyMedia, as we know it, started not with what happened in Seattle,
> but with the switch not being turned off. IndyMedia is now world wide
> and is still experiencing it's birth. I would like to know how the
> originators feel about these issues.
> 
> Banning someone from a list like this sets a precedent that will be
> remembered. I would ask patience. If you do not like Arc then delete
> his posts from your own email. Do not deny others his council. There
> are times when you may not like what he says, but this does not mean
> others will feel his issues are irrelevant. At times the relevance is
> more apparent after the passage of time.

I have had patience with arc since we were first confronted with him on
this list. This was when Imc Ithaca went through new-imc process.
He has never been behaving acceptably and he's able to get 2 stones
fighting.


> Further there is a pattern in these requests. To me it is apparent
> that we want to be viewed in a certain light. To this end we are
> being asked to exclude those who do not 'fit in' to our accepted
> model. But this is contrasted with our desire for openness. Before we
> start on this road we might discuss the implications of, among other
> things, excluding whole classes of people who are not like us.
> 
> I know this is asking a lot of some people, but as we are working
> hard to make something good happen lets not be lazy about the work
> involved in keeping different voices involved.

Arc just wants to exclude everyone who doesn't think as Zealot as him
about consensus. think about that.

> 5) The date for a decision is today. This is proposed by someone with
> the apparent ability to make it happen and we have been told that if
> there isn't significant disagreement s/he will make it so. I view
> there being an inherent conflict of interest in this and am asking
> that the person making any proposal of this type not be involved in
> make the final decision or carrying out the judgment of the group.

be serious.
this is a small working group. maybe 15-20 people active.
I thought the proposal was needed, and most feedback agreed with me.

Greetings,

Bart


> 6) I apologize for the rambling nature of this post. I am not much of
> a writer. Before I submitted this post i did try to join the list. I
> do not know the policy of this list re: submissions by non list
> members, but I hope the moderators will understand Why I am posting
> and allow it through.
> 
> Some view the current state of the US, if not the world as us versus
> them. Lets try to avoid making it us versus us as well.
> 
> In solidarity,
> 
> Neil

-- 
<Sander> 99% van jnm'ers denken er ook zo over
<christoph> stalinistische scores

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