[Seattle-editorial] Fwd: imc-tech Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
anarch3m
anarch3m at lycos.com
Thu Oct 2 13:38:08 PDT 2003
another issue to consider with a new code base and associated media files!
open or locked-linux or bill-Real or ogg ?
perhaps also an issue of media imperialism, from cleanchannel/R.Murdock to Real/Sony/RIAA issues
--
--------- Forwarded Message ---------
DATE: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:08:53
From: imc-tech-request at lists.indymedia.org
To: imc-tech at lists.indymedia.org
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:39:24 -0400
From: Arc <arc at indymedia.org> [add to address book] [protect or block sender]
Subject: [IMC-Tech] Please stop accepting Real on IMC sites!
To: imc-audio at lists.indymedia.org
Cc: imc-tech at lists.indymedia.org
Ok, so there's been alot of discussion/debate over Ogg.. but I think
there's something much more basic everyone can immediatly agree to based
on information that's not very widely known...
<lee> holy shit! from the Realaudio encoder Binary licence agreement:
<lee> use the Software to develop any application that has the capability of
transcoding or converting RealAudio or RealVideo Files into any
other file format
<lee> that should be prepended with "you may not"
<lee> ONE ENCODER, ONE MASTER RACE!
This is the same information that I got from Mark Weaver, who's somewhat
involved with Boston IMC and does alot of work with Boston-area
community/college radio.
Apparently, as he recounted in a video interview I did with him for my
"hactivism" video project, he downloaded audio from an IMC site to
rebroadcast on a local radio station. Oops, "this version is too old,
you must download a newer version". So he did, but this time he read
the license, which (similar to what Lee discovered today) states that
the PLAYER cannot be used to rebroadcast/transcode/redistribute the
media in any other form, even if the content is not copyrighted. I'll
be uploading audio from my interview with him in the comming days.
Lamens terms here: while technically difficult, it's still illegal to
rebroadcast IMC content that's distributed in Real format.
I believe a correct response to this should be a big honking notice on
the local IMC (and radio.indy) file upload section explaining that we
will no longer accept files in Real format and why, with suggestions for
alternative formats that aren't as aweful.
Apparently, also, even if you own the content it's illegal to transcode.
So all those old audio archives are legally lost, even if someone
decides to transcode them on their own. Lets atleast stop the damage
from continuing.
This is arguable a violation of Open Publishing, and certainly against
the purposes for us publishing audio to IMC sites. I think most local
collectives would agree to this course of action if presented with the
facts about Real licensing and had any interest in radio at all.
This, of course, also applies to a lesser degree for video (which
typically isn't high enough quality to rebroadcast anyways, but
philisophically still quite important).
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:11:53 -0700
From: "nathaniel t" <vsea75 at hotmail.com> [add to address book] [protect or block sender]
Subject: [IMC-Tech] Re: [IMC-Audio] Real on IMC sites
To: arc at indymedia.org, imc-audio at lists.indymedia.org
Cc: imc-tech at lists.indymedia.org
I say, "fuck the license," and I'd be happy to go to jail over it if they
really cared that much and they could catch me. I recommend not taking
RealAudio because the codec itself is a buggy piece of shit, and there's no
way to make it work reliably that I know of.
Casual RealOnePlayer users say, "what do you mean? it works for me ...
mostly ..."
"... mostly ..." isn't good enough for an automated radio station. Crapping
out for no reason every once in a while is unacceptable, and that's what it
does.
----Original Message Follows----
From: Arc <arc at indymedia.org>
To: imc-audio at lists.indymedia.org
CC: imc-tech at lists.indymedia.org
Subject: [IMC-Audio] Please stop accepting Real on IMC sites!
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:39:24 -0400
Ok, so there's been alot of discussion/debate over Ogg.. but I think
there's something much more basic everyone can immediatly agree to based
on information that's not very widely known...
<lee> holy shit! from the Realaudio encoder Binary licence agreement:
<lee> use the Software to develop any application that has the capability of
transcoding or converting RealAudio or RealVideo Files into any
other file format
<lee> that should be prepended with "you may not"
<lee> ONE ENCODER, ONE MASTER RACE!
This is the same information that I got from Mark Weaver, who's somewhat
involved with Boston IMC and does alot of work with Boston-area
community/college radio.
Apparently, as he recounted in a video interview I did with him for my
"hactivism" video project, he downloaded audio from an IMC site to
rebroadcast on a local radio station. Oops, "this version is too old,
you must download a newer version". So he did, but this time he read
the license, which (similar to what Lee discovered today) states that
the PLAYER cannot be used to rebroadcast/transcode/redistribute the
media in any other form, even if the content is not copyrighted. I'll
be uploading audio from my interview with him in the comming days.
Lamens terms here: while technically difficult, it's still illegal to
rebroadcast IMC content that's distributed in Real format.
I believe a correct response to this should be a big honking notice on
the local IMC (and radio.indy) file upload section explaining that we
will no longer accept files in Real format and why, with suggestions for
alternative formats that aren't as aweful.
Apparently, also, even if you own the content it's illegal to transcode.
So all those old audio archives are legally lost, even if someone
decides to transcode them on their own. Lets atleast stop the damage
from continuing.
This is arguable a violation of Open Publishing, and certainly against
the purposes for us publishing audio to IMC sites. I think most local
collectives would agree to this course of action if presented with the
facts about Real licensing and had any interest in radio at all.
This, of course, also applies to a lesser degree for video (which
typically isn't high enough quality to rebroadcast anyways, but
philisophically still quite important).
____________________________________________________________
Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005
-------------- next part --------------
Today's Topics:
1. Please stop accepting Real on IMC sites! (Arc)
2. Re: [IMC-Audio] Real on IMC sites (nathaniel t)
3. Re: Re: [IMC-Audio] Real on IMC sites (Arc)
4. Re: Re: [IMC-Audio] Real on IMC sites (Pabs)
5. Re: Re: [IMC-Audio] Real on IMC sites (Alsterwassermann)
6. Stallman full? Ask for donations (D. N. Russo)
7. Media formats (was Real on IMC sites) (Arc)
8. Re: Lossless Media (was Real on IMC..) (Alsterwassermann)
-------------- next part --------------
Ok, so there's been alot of discussion/debate over Ogg.. but I think
there's something much more basic everyone can immediatly agree to based
on information that's not very widely known...
<lee> holy shit! from the Realaudio encoder Binary licence agreement:
<lee> use the Software to develop any application that has the capability of
transcoding or converting RealAudio or RealVideo Files into any
other file format
<lee> that should be prepended with "you may not"
<lee> ONE ENCODER, ONE MASTER RACE!
This is the same information that I got from Mark Weaver, who's somewhat
involved with Boston IMC and does alot of work with Boston-area
community/college radio.
Apparently, as he recounted in a video interview I did with him for my
"hactivism" video project, he downloaded audio from an IMC site to
rebroadcast on a local radio station. Oops, "this version is too old,
you must download a newer version". So he did, but this time he read
the license, which (similar to what Lee discovered today) states that
the PLAYER cannot be used to rebroadcast/transcode/redistribute the
media in any other form, even if the content is not copyrighted. I'll
be uploading audio from my interview with him in the comming days.
Lamens terms here: while technically difficult, it's still illegal to
rebroadcast IMC content that's distributed in Real format.
I believe a correct response to this should be a big honking notice on
the local IMC (and radio.indy) file upload section explaining that we
will no longer accept files in Real format and why, with suggestions for
alternative formats that aren't as aweful.
Apparently, also, even if you own the content it's illegal to transcode.
So all those old audio archives are legally lost, even if someone
decides to transcode them on their own. Lets atleast stop the damage
from continuing.
This is arguable a violation of Open Publishing, and certainly against
the purposes for us publishing audio to IMC sites. I think most local
collectives would agree to this course of action if presented with the
facts about Real licensing and had any interest in radio at all.
This, of course, also applies to a lesser degree for video (which
typically isn't high enough quality to rebroadcast anyways, but
philisophically still quite important).
-------------- next part --------------
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I say, "fuck the license," and I'd be happy to go to jail over it if they
really cared that much and they could catch me. I recommend not taking
RealAudio because the codec itself is a buggy piece of shit, and there's no
way to make it work reliably that I know of.
Casual RealOnePlayer users say, "what do you mean? it works for me ...
mostly ..."
"... mostly ..." isn't good enough for an automated radio station. Crapping
out for no reason every once in a while is unacceptable, and that's what it
does.
----Original Message Follows----
From: Arc <arc at indymedia.org>
To: imc-audio at lists.indymedia.org
CC: imc-tech at lists.indymedia.org
Subject: [IMC-Audio] Please stop accepting Real on IMC sites!
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:39:24 -0400
Ok, so there's been alot of discussion/debate over Ogg.. but I think
there's something much more basic everyone can immediatly agree to based
on information that's not very widely known...
<lee> holy shit! from the Realaudio encoder Binary licence agreement:
<lee> use the Software to develop any application that has the capability of
transcoding or converting RealAudio or RealVideo Files into any
other file format
<lee> that should be prepended with "you may not"
<lee> ONE ENCODER, ONE MASTER RACE!
This is the same information that I got from Mark Weaver, who's somewhat
involved with Boston IMC and does alot of work with Boston-area
community/college radio.
Apparently, as he recounted in a video interview I did with him for my
"hactivism" video project, he downloaded audio from an IMC site to
rebroadcast on a local radio station. Oops, "this version is too old,
you must download a newer version". So he did, but this time he read
the license, which (similar to what Lee discovered today) states that
the PLAYER cannot be used to rebroadcast/transcode/redistribute the
media in any other form, even if the content is not copyrighted. I'll
be uploading audio from my interview with him in the comming days.
Lamens terms here: while technically difficult, it's still illegal to
rebroadcast IMC content that's distributed in Real format.
I believe a correct response to this should be a big honking notice on
the local IMC (and radio.indy) file upload section explaining that we
will no longer accept files in Real format and why, with suggestions for
alternative formats that aren't as aweful.
Apparently, also, even if you own the content it's illegal to transcode.
So all those old audio archives are legally lost, even if someone
decides to transcode them on their own. Lets atleast stop the damage
from continuing.
This is arguable a violation of Open Publishing, and certainly against
the purposes for us publishing audio to IMC sites. I think most local
collectives would agree to this course of action if presented with the
facts about Real licensing and had any interest in radio at all.
This, of course, also applies to a lesser degree for video (which
typically isn't high enough quality to rebroadcast anyways, but
philisophically still quite important).
_________________________________________________________________
Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month
(depending on the local service providers in your area).
https://broadband.msn.com
-------------- next part --------------
On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 11:11:53PM -0700, nathaniel t wrote:
> I say, "fuck the license," and I'd be happy to go to jail over it if they
> really cared that much and they could catch me. I recommend not taking
> RealAudio because the codec itself is a buggy piece of shit, and there's no
> way to make it work reliably that I know of.
>
> Casual RealOnePlayer users say, "what do you mean? it works for me ...
> mostly ..."
>
> "... mostly ..." isn't good enough for an automated radio station.
> Crapping out for no reason every once in a while is unacceptable, and
> that's what it does.
I'm not refering to end users.
I'm refering, primarily, to all those community radio stations that use
radio.indy to browse audio content being submitted to IMCs daily. Many
of those stations may not have ever read the license, and prehaps Real
will never do anything about it, but the player "you can't redistribute"
clause is total BS. I'm still looking for the exact text on this.
For the newer stuff, that Lee quoted earlier today, is even greater
concern for me. We have a shitload of archives, many of them in file
formats that have already become obsolete (remember mp2?) and will
become less easy to aquire over time. With something like mp2 there's
less to worry about, since it's fairly wide spread and many sources.
However, Real is a different issue. Even the free-to-download Real
players have license restrictions against redistribution, and they
legally restrict you from transcoding. So we might end up, as Real
continues to go down the tubes, with our hands full of a bunch of
useless archives because nobody will be able to listen to them.
In my recent scanning I found that RP8 for Linux doesn't have a "you
cant transcode" clause, and am currently setting up a script to convert
Real format to Ogg (which seems to transcode alot nicer than MP3->Ogg).
With either URL rewrite or mimetype mojo we should be able to have this
change be seamless to the archives.
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, nathaniel t wrote:
> I say, "fuck the license," and I'd be happy to go to jail over it if they
> really cared that much and they could catch me.
I'd echo that sentiment, except I really doubt that such a licence is
enforcible. IANAL, so is there a indymedia-legal list & if so can they
look at this?
> This, of course, also applies to a lesser degree for video (which
> typically isn't high enough quality to rebroadcast anyways, but
> philisophically still quite important).
Yeah, on video please don't make realvideo streams the only way to view
imc produced documentaries, because they are absolutely USELESS for
screenings and anything other than a one off viewing by one person. Use
anything else, use windows media streams if you must stream, since there
is free capture software for both windows and linux (asfrecorder)
I'm talking mainly about http://indymedia.org/projects.php3
Bye,
Pabs
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Hash: SHA1
Pabs wrote:
P> Yeah, on video please don't make realvideo streams the only way to view
P> imc produced documentaries, because they are absolutely USELESS for
P> screenings and anything other than a one off viewing by one person. Use
P> anything else, use windows media streams if you must stream, since there
P> is free capture software for both windows and linux (asfrecorder)
P> I'm talking mainly about http://indymedia.org/projects.php3
I doubt that Windows Media is in any way a better alternative. True,
there is "ASFRecorder", and there also is "Windows Media Recorder".
On the other hand, there is the "Streambox Suite" (search google for
it) for ripping Real Media (including Streams) on Windows. But -AFAIK-
none of them may be used legally (in case you care ybout that).
However, I do strongly propose that we use open formats as they are
available as both an implementation to produce audio/video streams AND
to play them back on all common OS.
AFAIK, OGG format audio streams can already be produced on linux and
windows, maybe even on mac. Icecast is also available for all of these
systems. And I am sure streams can be played back on all of these
systems. I do not know about video content though, but I remember
someone (was it Arc?) had setup "the first completely open source
video stream" for n5m. So this should be possible for the future as
well.
To me, the real important thing seems to be passing on knowledge here.
We need to spread our experiences on creating, distributing, playing
and recording GPL'd or artistic license media formats to both media
creators and end users. This can be easily done using wiki. I do not
have in-depth knowledge on this matter but I assume some of you have.
This is why I propose some of you create / extend / update twiki pages
on how to do all this stuff.
Additionally to that I would propose that - in case we have enough
space to store it -, in the futre, we will store all audio (if
possible also video) content in both lossful and lossless compressed
versions. For example, audio content could be stored in both OGG
(lossfull as MP3 would be too) and FLAC (lossless but still more
compressed and thus smaller in filesize than raw WAVe format) formats.
This way - in the futrure - it will be possible to transform old media
to new emerging formats much better (in sound quality) than by
transcoding it.
Please note that I am talking of disk space here, not of
bandwidth/transferred data. I.e. I recommend we publicly only offer
the lossfull formats (as we do now) but keep a internal archive of
the lossless content.
Maybe I'm too idealistic here, but if you just think back in history a
little then you should relize this actually makes sense. Imagine the
recordings by famous artists like Bo Diddley, Louis Armstrong, The
Beatles or The Velvet Underground would be available in the quality as
they were originally captured by the microphones in the clubs. That
would be a great and wishful improvement. A pity nobody knew of
digital recording back then. Now we do know about it. And we are able
to store data in a high quality. So we should do that instead of only
keeping our content recorded as mp3 or ogg which could be compared to
storing it on vinyl records in the past.
A-mann
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>
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>From: "Elizabeth Fraser" <ehf at bookbeast.com>
>Precedence: list
>Subject: [IMC-Tech]
> Chicago, New York, Seattle front pages not looking so good
>Cc: chicago-tech-owner at lists.indymedia.org
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:03:34 -0500
>To: <imc-tech at lists.indymedia.org>,
> "Ian Bicking" <ianb at colorstudy.com>
>Reply-To: ehf at bookbeast.com
>Message-ID: <009201c386ff$702dfb70$273f4b44 at thinkpad600e>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Message: 3
>
>
>Hello, about an hour and a half ago, Chicago noticed front page feature
>column not loading at all (separate events column loads)--now noticing
>that Seattle and New York aren't looking that good. Images are not
>showing on archived Chicago pages. (Netscape and I.E.)
>
>Elizabeth
>ehf at bookbeast.com
>Chicago
Greetings
May I suggest that affected IMCs take this opportunity to take down their
website by throwing up a SPLASH page informing readers that "WE'RE FULL!
That's right, the hard drive is full and that's why the website is no
longer properly displaying stories. Please take this time to send your
donation via secure server at...or check or money order payable to: xxxx to
1234 xxx....
"Our techs are currently finessing the machine, but after years of free
Indymedia, we now must take this step and have a fund drive to get a hard
drive. We believe it is only fair to ask readers and users to participate
in this fundraising. Thank you for your support. The sooner you help, the
sooner we'll be back online.
*** IMC Team"
Just a suggestion from the world of listener-supported radio. Stallman's
been begging for this, believe me. If it could talk, what would it say? ;-)
The sudden effect of full HD should not only stress out the IMCers running
the show, but needs to be felt by the readers/users.
-rupert
washington, dc
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On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 04:31:42PM +0200, Alsterwassermann wrote:
>
> I doubt that Windows Media is in any way a better alternative. True,
> there is "ASFRecorder", and there also is "Windows Media Recorder".
> On the other hand, there is the "Streambox Suite" (search google for
> it) for ripping Real Media (including Streams) on Windows. But -AFAIK-
> none of them may be used legally (in case you care ybout that).
> However, I do strongly propose that we use open formats as they are
> available as both an implementation to produce audio/video streams AND
> to play them back on all common OS.
>
> AFAIK, OGG format audio streams can already be produced on linux and
> windows, maybe even on mac. Icecast is also available for all of these
> systems. And I am sure streams can be played back on all of these
> systems. I do not know about video content though, but I remember
> someone (was it Arc?) had setup "the first completely open source
> video stream" for n5m. So this should be possible for the future as
> well.
Ogg is not a format in itself, but a free container format for other
free codecs. Ogg Vorbis is currently the most popular, but there's also
Ogg Flac (lossless), Ogg Speex (speech compression), and Ogg Theora
(vp3 based video).
Ogg Vorbis can be encoded on any platform, even BeOS, using free
software. Software at www.vorbis.com. Icecast will soon be able to
stream more than just Ogg Vorbis, there's plans to migrate it to using
the OggFile library which will enable it to stream any Ogg codec, even
Ogg Theora (plus whatever audio it uses) for video streaming.
I was not involved with n5m and don't know of their supposidly "open
source video stream". I am involved with Xiph, the group that produces
Ogg and Icecast. I wrote the software that processes Ogg pages to
produce the IMC global radio, and am planning to use this system to
compile IMC TV.
> To me, the real important thing seems to be passing on knowledge here.
> We need to spread our experiences on creating, distributing, playing
> and recording GPL'd or artistic license media formats to both media
> creators and end users. This can be easily done using wiki. I do not
> have in-depth knowledge on this matter but I assume some of you have.
> This is why I propose some of you create / extend / update twiki pages
> on how to do all this stuff.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Yes we need training, and I
think we need to include in said local training a brief education in
current IP laws and why it's important to stay away from shit like Real.
<rest snipped to another email>
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Hi Arc, hi tech and audio folks!
This email deals with A/V production and storage and should be of
interest to all of you who are worried about both disk space issues
and AV content repositories.
A> On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 04:31:42PM +0200, Alsterwassermann wrote:
>>
>> Additionally to that I would propose that - in case we have enough
>> space to store it -, in the futre, we will store all audio (if
>> possible also video) content in both lossful and lossless compressed
>> versions. For example, audio content could be stored in both OGG
>> (lossfull as MP3 would be too) and FLAC (lossless but still more
>> compressed and thus smaller in filesize than raw WAVe format) formats.
>> This way - in the futrure - it will be possible to transform old media
>> to new emerging formats much better (in sound quality) than by
>> transcoding it.
>>
>> Please note that I am talking of disk space here, not of
>> bandwidth/transferred data. I.e. I recommend we publicly only offer
>> the lossfull formats (as we do now) but keep a internal archive of
>> the lossless content.
>>
>> Maybe I'm too idealistic here, but if you just think back in history a
>> little then you should relize this actually makes sense. Imagine the
>> recordings by famous artists like Bo Diddley, Louis Armstrong, The
>> Beatles or The Velvet Underground would be available in the quality as
>> they were originally captured by the microphones in the clubs. That
>> would be a great and wishful improvement. A pity nobody knew of
>> digital recording back then. Now we do know about it. And we are able
>> to store data in a high quality. So we should do that instead of only
>> keeping our content recorded as mp3 or ogg which could be compared to
>> storing it on vinyl records in the past.
As a reply to that, Arc wrote:
A> I agree, and I too am worried about disk space.
A> Berkman, our big media streaming system in Amsterdam, has a 300gig RAID
A> array. After just a few months of useage we've already filled 15% of
Wow, this is a lot. Maybe it would be a goog idea to browse through all
the stored files and see whether this is
- all really indymedia content
- not containing duplicate contents
- content which should be stored for a long time
A> it. For audio, absolutly Flac is a great idea. I'd love to have a
A> submittion system where producers upload Flac and it's automatically
A> encoded to Vorbis.
Yeah that'd be great. Especially with an *option* to delete the flac
afterwards.
A> However Flac is roughly 6-12 times larger than Vorbis; roughly 350kbps
A> for mono, 700kbps for stereo, compaired to 56kbps vorbis. This means
A> the remainder of those 300gigs will be filled a bit faster.
A> For radio program uploads (for the global radio), which I think is the
A> bulk of that 15%, I think we should keep that archived in Vorbis.
A> Prehaps for smaller stuff, like an interview or speech, we can allow for
A> lossless uploads with Ogg Flac and do the auto-encoding to Vorbis thing.
Yeah, with the flac getting erased after the ogg was created. That'd
be nice.
A> But really, we need something like Monty setup for lossless archives as
A> a policy. If you haven't seen it yet:
A> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MontyInfo
No, I didn't know of this project before. But I just looked at it and
may I say I LOVE it!? :)
This is really a GREAT setup. I'm not sure whether the 1 gig RAM will
be sufficient nor whether it wouldn't possibly make more sense to have
the server reside ata remote site and create DVDs and CD-Rs at
locations where you have high-speed internet access (universities for
example). But generally this is absolutely a great setup which would
perfectly fit the needs the indymedia network currently has IMHO.
Unluckily it is *really* expensive and thus convincing people could be
difficult. But I couldn't think of any better way of storing data. And
just now, that the other servers are becoming too crowded it might be
the perfect point in time to set it up. move the currently existing
audio over to it and thus free lots of disk space on the other
servers. This is also why I decided to send this email (including the
latest context) to both the tech and audio lists.
Btw. I am not subscribed to the audio list, so please CC me again in
future emails.
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